Shut Sai-On seems to be Sze-To On

[heinz Germany]

http://hkmdb.com/db/people/view.mhtml?i ... ay_set=eng
http://hkmdb.com/db/people/view.mhtml?i ... ay_set=eng

[kenichiku]

Glad you brought this one up Heinz as I've mentioned before, I've never seen or heard of 'Shut' being associated with anything Cantonese as far as linguistic phonetics go yet I do see this one prop up all over cyberspace with anything relating to HK film & the characters it's usually associated with should be 'Shi', 'Sze' or 'See'. I wish I am wrong for the sake of correcting errata but I see it everywhere...mostly here. Anyone else here share my observation?

[calros]

merged:

Shut Sai-On
Cantonese: Shut Saai On
Mandarin: Si1 Xi3 An1
å

[kenichiku]

but I found several Chinese sites romanizing them as Shut

That's interesting Cal. Actually my reasons for speaking up is personal as I've known a handful of people of Cantonese origin throughout my life (each unconnected with each other) who spell their sirnames 'Szeto' in English (& maybe once I seen 'Seetow' used for an old-timer). Here I only wish to qualify my discussion towards the obscure names that get little English exposure and newly coined transliterations (within say past 5 years) and please, I'm not trying to usurp the Cantonese dialect or reinvent your policies here so if you guys think I'm full of shiite, please let me have it.

If not explicitly shown on-screen or in past publicity as their names pass thru the occidental curtain, I think the editor has to think how might a Chinese name be used in real life beyond what one might think as 'systemically' or 'academically' correct based on some online protocol. This is one criteria when coining transliterated names on the web if they either haven't through their own studio, publicist or personally have coined it for themselves. You see if they haven't, you the editor have assumed this responsibility in forging their identity and if you're talking about a gigantic DB with a global reach like the one some of us contribute for, the public reverberations can be far reaching especially in the name of those who aren't speaking for themselves. For past staff, it's seemingly easy as the self-correcting phenomena of a dynamic Wiki-community taking over to deliberate towards a definitive end given access to such bountiful data as historical precedence here. A little more tricky for new staff with little or no resumes though. I've been lucky to have spoken with aspiring young Chinese/Chinese-Am in the business (w/ & w/o any connection to HK film) who are very sensitive to how their names show up on print. For these kids, their nome-de-plumes are as critical as their head-shot glossies. Not to over-analyze the issue but here in California, how names are represented usually gives the astute fan, inquirer or professional casting agent certain clues about a subject's marketability as well as regional & cultural roots with each interpretation as unique as the color of one's eyes or fingerprints. Please excuse me if I fail to sound constructive here but the impression that some names are systematically listed here tells me more about the editors rather than the subjects the editors intend to inform.

Just like the sirnames for example 'Reinick' common for Germanic roots while 'Reinik' is used on Slavic turf, 'Yang' is ubiquitous in the north correlating with 'Yeung' in the south while 'Yeoh' can be usually found in the ethnic-tropical southeast, we get personalized clues from spelling for a person's background, region and dialect that is consistent and reflective of what I call the vast Chinese diaspora, past & present. For me, these are the clues that help flesh out names beyond a data entry but people with unique characteristics, origins, cultural ties & even social class at one's fingertips. The rest is show biz. Just based on 'going-by-the-book', those proficient would know that we would have 'John Ng' in Cantonese rather than 'John Woo' for the celebrated director now wouldn't we? It's safe to say he had a conscious hand in this. Just as Leslie remained 'Cheung' & not 'Chang' (Mando) or Brigitte as 'Lin' not 'Lam' (Canto) during the HK Canto era are no accidents as well. So by the same token based on usage I have yet to see 'Taam' or 'Shut Tu' used on driver's or marriage licenses, school ID cards, passports or greeting cards with all the Chinese names I've come across in my travels or at home. If you buy that premise, wouldn't this rule apply towards folks in HK film too?

[calros]

There is a second problem.

å

[kenichiku]

Again the variations are cultural/regional to the subject personality & it depends on your policies. Over at my neck of the woods, this guy's primary currently reads as 'Sito, An' probably a Canto based incarnation. If I had my way, it'll be 'Szeto, An' because according to my logic based on usage which was what I thought you guys also followed, it would be the way a person's credits originally appeared in English on-screen and/or in past publicity during his time. If your data subjects were ever affiliated with the big houses like the Mandarin owned studios which Szeto happened to have worked for (Shaws), you'll get an official line on a name by their Oxford-English trained scribes who'll stick to the prevailing conventions (which was Yale-Wade-Giles) for this guy. You would find the similar naming convention for any Joe Chinese baby boomer during that time who left trace records of their life, applied for a passport, got christened, baptized, bar-mitzvahed, enrolled in school, got married, divorced, on the dole, arrested, died, etc had been officially coined a transliterated name on official documents especially while emigrating around the English speaking world was my point earlier because this supports my logic.

Anyway, if you're in touch with any of Mr Szeto's pre-Shaw affiliated 50-60s Cantonese work expecting to find clues on his English romanization, you may not find it because non-imported HK Canto titles like many Taiwanese ones weren't even subbed unless by HK distributors (therefore the onscreen HK Canto bias found in many commercial Taiwanese Indie titles) or until later in this case by Canto based HKFA staff for festival screenings who'll have the same dilemma representing names like you do now so looking at how they might catalog his name may be a good option for you guys to adopt. For the 1970s studios' handling of this guy, he's always been known to me as 'Szeto An' (or something very close to this) for any of his credits at Shaws and that would stick with him wherever he went afterwards. You see ole' Run Run didn't get knighted for just picking the Queen up at the airport whenever she holidayed the colony. IMO, the late Big Daddy Runde taught his sons well educating them abroad and in turn adopting British values along the way along with the help and yes, the goodwill followed so it became a class thing too. The local scribes now who've been around long enough to have witnessed all this all seem to have collective cultural amnesia on how things used to be as far as linguistic continuity was concerned but my point is never I mean NEVER have I ever seen this Chinese character romanized as 'Shut' in any dialect, then and now. You see, we were never taught to say 'Wo gei wong bou you han gung shut' in [size=150]和記黃埔有é™

[calros]

OK changed