While working through adding some posters for Korean films, I came across Adorable Treasure Hunt [1983] where I recognised the Korean martial arts actor Yoo Seong. Using his name I tracked down the Korean title for this film and tried to match some of the none Korean names, the only successful one being for Hsu Pu-liao, most of the Chinese names have been translated into gibberish in Hangul (this happens more often than you'd think ).

But I saw the Korean director was Kim Jong-seong, who's worked on many of the Korea/Hong Kong/Taiwan co-productions, I checked his HKMDB page and saw only a few titles there.

So if nobody has any objections, I plan to do the following changes to the Kim Jong-seong related films in a few days:


Add Kim Jong-seong as a director to the following films:
The Super Kung-Fu Fighter [1978]
The Legendary Strike [1978]
Return To The 36th Chamber [1980] (yes, that one)
Monkey War [1982]
Adorable Treasure Hunt [1983]
Ninja Operation 7: Royal Warriors [1987] ... [GREAT ESCAPE footage]

Add Kim Jong-seong as a screenwriter to the following films:
Soul Killer [1982]
Snake Fist Of A Buddhist Dragon [1983]
Adorable Treasure Hunt [1983]

Add Korean posters for these co-productions, giving priority to the HK or Taiwan version where possible.

Add the Korean titles to these films that require it.

Also specifically regarding Adorable Treasure Hunt [1983], I'll add the 6 missing Korean cast members (there's 7, but Chao Le-hsi is actually a translation from the Hanja for Jo Rak-hui, so I'll also upgrade her page too), some will require me to create pages for them. I'll add ID's to the corresponding photos (there's only about four) and add a few more. I'll also add Hsu Pu-liao's Korean name to his page under alias and add Jang Eun-seon to the cast of Monkey War, as she apparently is in that film too with director Kim Jong-seong.

It's a bunch to get through, but at least it'll make things a bit clearer when it comes to the Korea/HK/Taiwan crossovers.

Cheers

Done.

I also did a few more adjustments while working through this:

added Hangul and DOB for Kim Jong-seong's page.

added Korean names for: The Super Kung-Fu Killer [1978] and director Sun Yang / The Legendary Strike [1978] director Wong Fung / Return To The 36th Chamber [1980] and director Lau Kar-leung / Monkey War director Chen Chun-liang / Adorable Treasure Hunt [1983] and director Han Bao-chang / original footage Korean title for Ninja Operation 7: Royal Warriors.

added the alias The Angry Dragon to Fury Of Dragon [1978].

Cheers

J.J.Hayden wrote:Ninja Operation 7: Royal Warriors [1987] ... [GREAT ESCAPE footage]

I disagree with this. The IFD version doesn't credit the director of the footage they happened to use, as they usually don't, so we shouldn't add that credit either. Would Kim Jong-seong really say that he directed Ninja Operation 7: Royal Warriors?

yukabacera wrote:

J.J.Hayden wrote:Ninja Operation 7: Royal Warriors [1987] ... [GREAT ESCAPE footage]

I disagree with this. The IFD version doesn't credit the director of the footage they happened to use, as they usually don't, so we shouldn't add that credit either. Would Kim Jong-seong really say that he directed Ninja Operation 7: Royal Warriors?

Although I have to give credit to IFD, as without them many of these films would never have seen the light of day outside of Korea etc. However I find it a bit disrespectful that IFD don't give credit to the director (at least) of the original footage, usually slapping Godfrey Ho on there even on films he had no input in directing.

As for director Kim's feelings on the Ninja Operation 7, I don't think any of us can say for sure. But from my experience of the Korean director's thoughts on the IFD stuff, they're mostly happy that their footage is able to reach an international audience.

I'd think the HKMDB would be happy to have as much accurate info on the films as possible. By the logic prescribed above, most (if not all) of the Asian cast members would be removed as they are usually given pseudo English names (that rarely have any connection to their real name) on the IFD credits, if given any name at all.

I'd think the HKMDB would be happy to have as much accurate info on the films as possible. By the logic prescribed above, most (if not all) of the Asian cast members would be removed as they are usually given pseudo English names (that rarely have any connection to their real name) on the IFD credits, if given any name at all.

That's not true. An uncredited actor is a wholly different, much simpler situation. Either the actor appears in the movie or they don't. In the case of movies that use stock footage, like IFD movies, we already indicate that they appear via stock footage only. Obviously we can't really know the extent of the work Godfrey Ho actually did on the new movie, but he is the credited director, and part of that job surely would have been to adapt the stock footage used, too. It's a new creative product which should have everything to do with Godfrey Ho's ideas, not with Kim's, and we can be pretty sure that Kim Jong-seong had no input on Ninja Operation 7: Royal Warriors. There really is no argument to call him an 'uncredited' director, even, let alone an actual (co-)director of the movie.

It is true, the argument is sound. An uncredited actor in these cut and paste situations is not very different at all. The only material difference is you see there face on the screen, but you can make the same argument for the director's work, though you don't see his face, you do see most of his creative vision on screen when it comes to his original scene, the acting, lighting, camerawork etc. all are part of his original vision, all that really changes is the dialogue. The only exception being when new scenes are cut in (e.g. man on a Garfield phone), but this only effects things such as the story and pacing etc. the direction of the original material has not been changed, Kim still filmed it his way.

All the arguments for removing Kim Jong-seong's name do apply to the Korean actors too. "It's a new creative product which should have everything to do with Godfrey Ho's ideas, not with Kim's, and we can be pretty sure that Kim Jong-seong had no input on Ninja Operation 7: Royal Warriors." apply this to the actor's, they had no input or say on how there scenes were used or changed, would they approve of it? That's irrelevant, we credit them anyway for what they contributed to the project, whether they approved, or were even aware of it's existence.

I'd certainly approve of a way to set Kim Jong-seong as e.g. Director of original footage, but as far as I'm aware, there isn't at the moment. I could create a whole page for the original film, as I've seen some other entirely Korean films, but I'm not sure on the rules about that. So as things stand, I believe Kim having a director credit is the most appropriate decision.

I believe in giving credit where it's due and stand by my belief that it is more useful for the database, to include as much accurate data as possible on the film. If the original director is not credited, most will assume it was entirely Godfrey Ho's project and may never become aware and/or look into the works of the original creator. I say this cheats both the fans/researchers and the original creator. There'd need to be a decent argument to convince me otherwise.

added Korean names for: Return To The 36th Chamber [1980]

I have great doubts that he co-directed that movie! If he was involved only as assistant. That movie was made mainly in the Shaw Brothers studios in HK.

Sometimes Korean sources list Korean names only to meet quota regulations.
The same thing happend long ago with Euopean co-productions with as example Spanish composers listed instead of the correct Italien composers or Italien directors listed instead of the correct German directors in Italien prints.

I would not always trust the directors listed in the Korean Movie database if it is no Korean movie.

J.J.Hayden, by invoking the matter of the respective directors' visions and ideas I tried to approach the issue from a common-sense viewpoint, not to start a debate about theory, but maybe I was wrong to do so. The credited director on the movie called Ninja Operation 7: Royal Warriors is Godfrey Ho. Let's look at it this way: at the very minimum, you should provide some kind of reliable source that shows that Kim Jong-seong was an uncredited director on that movie if you want to add his name to the page. Even then I would consider the addition questionable and disagree, but for different reasons. As it currently stands, there is no argument for adding his name from a data-backed viewpoint, which should be our primary viewpoint, as a database. If you cannot provide a source, it should be removed.

Michael Kistner wrote:Sometimes Korean sources list Korean names only to meet quota regulations.
The same thing happend long ago with Euopean co-productions with as example Spanish composers listed instead of the correct Italien composers or Italien directors listed instead of the correct German directors in Italien prints.

I would not always trust the directors listed in the Korean Movie database if it is no Korean movie.

I also absolutely agree with Michael on this issue. I didn't want to comment on the other movies in my initial post, since I'm not really familiar with most of them, and I'm not familiar with Korean martial arts movies in general, but I have heard about the issue of the "fake co-productions" before.

I have great doubts that he co-directed that movie! If he was involved only as assistant. That movie was made mainly in the Shaw Brothers studios in HK.

Yes, It's a tricky one. It's hard to say for sure what the situation is here, you make good arguments. I myself had to raise an eyebrow seeing Liu Chia-liang sharing a directing credit on this.

As you say, it was mostly filmed at Shaws, but I believe it's possible some might've been filmed in Korea as it features several Korean actors, most of which I have no knowledge of them ever going to Hong Kong. So I assume Kim Jong-seong directed (or was instrumental in directing) the scenes shot in Korea. Or perhaps he was director for additional scenes shot in Korea, for a Korean print of the film?

But what should I do in a situation like this? I know (very well ) that the KMDB can be spotty, but unless we know otherwise for sure, shouldn't he be listed as a director? I wouldn't object strongly to moving him to assistant director, but I'm just not sure if it would be the correct move .

Anybody have thoughts on this?

yukabacera, I stand by my arguments, I don't think even you are denying that Kim Jong-seong directed the original footage, so bottom line is, that's your source. If you need more, all I can do is refer you to my previous posts as I don't have time to repeat the same points, as I felt that was common-sense rather than "theory". I doubt we're going to see eye to eye on this matter.

As for what Michael said about the "fake co-productions", this is correct, but it gets much harder to distinguish between what's "fake" or not when it comes to films with a good number of Korean cast or production team and filming in Korea, rather than no Koreans yet a Korean director's name gets slapped on it.

J.J.Hayden wrote:yukabacera, I stand by my arguments, I don't think even you are denying that Kim Jong-seong directed the original footage, so bottom line is, that's your source. If you need more, all I can do is refer you to my previous posts as I don't have time to repeat the same points, as I felt that was common-sense rather than "theory". I doubt we're going to see eye to eye on this matter.

It doesn't matter whether we see eye-to-eye, since this is a database that ought to deal in facts, not opinion. The fact is that Kim Jong-seong was the original director of a large amount of stock footage that Godfrey Ho used in his own movie, and not a co-director of Ho's movie. The fact is that Kim Jong-seong is not credited in that movie. There is nothing to discuss here - unless you have a source, the credit should be removed.

Somebody before put a Korean Director to near all old jackie chan and sammo hung movies, they were all deleted...

why not adding the original Korean movies with real director and cast & crews ?

why not adding the original Korean movies with real director and cast & crews ?

Thanks Harlock for the polite reply

I'd be very happy with implementing that solution, If I get a green light to do so.


In regards to Korean directors for JC and Sammo movies, why were they deleted? Was it based on strong evidence that the Korean director's weren't involved? (Obviously it's a lot easier to find definitive info on films with big stars in them) Or was it on a hunch?

I'm asking in regards to Return To The 36th Chamber, as stated earlier I think most of us are a bit suss on the Korean co-director credit and I wouldn't mind moving to assistant director or something, but without definitive proof that the Korean director's name was slapped on for the Korean quota etc., is it right to remove it?

Cheers

there a couple things to considerate before adding them, does they have English title? (if not we can maybe use the Korean english romanisation?), chinese character for the titles ( i don't think we can add movie with just Korean characters yet)...

In regards to Korean directors for JC and Sammo movies, why were they deleted? Was it based on strong evidence that the Korean director's weren't involved? (Obviously it's a lot easier to find definitive info on films with big stars in them) Or was it on a hunch?

for HK movies we just use HK credits from the movie, if they don't add the Korean crew, it's too bad unfortunatly.

A lot of the Korean "Kung Fu" movies from the 80's and earlier use Hanja (Chinese characters) for titles so that hopefully won't be an issue, also I believe it is possible to add just an English title e.g. Return Of The Scorpion [1980], so if there is no Chinese title I can use the English one, and if not available I can romanize the Hangul. Bob has mentioned looking into making things more integrated with with Hangul (at the moment it's seems limited to aliases for now, which is okay, at least the info is there), but I'm not a tech guy so don't know how difficult it would be to implement it.

Just waiting on a few thing before making some improvements to the Koreans on the database. It'll still take some time, but it's something I'm committed to, so don't worry.

Like I said Korean sources list often for quota regulation (or tax reasons) Korean directors at co-productions.

No one can honestly believe that WARRIORS TWO, for example, was co-directed by a Korean director. At most a few landscape shots or insignificant shots. This is Sammo Hung's baby!

HEROES SHED NO TEARS (John Woo) is another case with Korean credits with no John Woo as director but an Korean director. See that report about that matter (it is in German):

https://www.schnittberichte.com/schnitt ... ?ID=401846

One part translated:

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
A Film By... Sin Wi-Gyun?!? - Credit oddities

Before we get into the main movie, a few words about the credits. The opening credits are all in Chinese. Golden Harvest is known to have renamed the film's original title (The Sunset Warrior, or 黃昏戰土 in Chinese) to Heroes Shed No Tears (英雄無淚) just ahead of its theatrical release, hoping the new title would evoke associations with Woo's megahit A Better Tomorrow (英雄本色 - "The True Nature of a Hero") and make the box office ring. Curiously, the Korean version uses neither the one nor the other title, the title given there is 九死一生, which means something like "Jump from death". In the Korean Movie Database, the English title is consequently given as Close Call With Death. Der Korean title 구사일생 will not be displayed during the movie.

But the confusion of titles is only the beginning. The next thing to wonder about is that the two main actors, Eddy Ko and Lam Ching-Ying, aren't named in the credits. Instead, names like Ho Yiu-sum and Lam Gun-bo appear in the credits. A quick look at Wikipedia brings the explanation: These are the birth names of Eddy Ko and Lam Ching-Ying. Why the birth names and not the usual stage names of the actors are mentioned here remains a mystery at first.
The biggest hit then comes with the crew credits. After the Korean Lee Woo-suk is named as the producer, one actually expects a directing credit for John Woo. But instead of Woo, a Korean gets the sole credit as director: Sin Wi-Gyun. But who is this Sin Wi-Gyun? Is Sin Wi-Gyun the ominous director of the infamous reshot scenes?

Anyone looking for Sin Wi-Gyun on the Internet will first find what they are looking for in the Hong Kong Movie Database. There, Sin Wi-Gyun (AKA Chin Wei-Chun AKA Shen Wei-Kun AKA Shin Wei-Chun AKA San Wai-Kwan AKA Shen Wei-Chun) is credited as an assistant director on a good dozen HK productions. It is striking that these are only productions in which actors and crew members from Korea were involved. Among other things, Sin served as an assistant director on the terrific Shaw Brothers classic Zhao directed by Korean Cheng Chang-Ho, which popularized the kung fu film in the US under the alternate title Five Fingers of Death. However, what is even more interesting in connection with Heroes Shed No Tears: Both Sin Wi-Gyun and Lee Woo-suk had already worked together with John Woo on a Golden Harvest production almost 10 years earlier, namely on Woo's girl power martial arts - Finger exercise The Dragon Tamers (released in Korea as A Dangerous Hero), which again featured numerous Korean actors. So there's a 99% chance that he won't be the director of the reshooted scenes, especially since only a few of the Hong Kong actors can be seen in the reshoots.
Consequently, neither producer Lee Woo-suk nor assistant director Sin Wi-Gyun are named in the Hong Kong credits. To make the chaos complete, the Golden Harvest boss Leonard Ho is named as the sole scriptwriter in Korea. The original author Chua Lam is not named in either version, Woo gets the sole author credit in the Hong Kong version.

These strange changes probably have a simple reason. In "Woo: Life and Films" the "absurd situation in the film market in the Republic of South Korea" is explained very vividly:

Since the television age dawned in the south of the divided peninsula in the late 1960s, viewers have been running away from local cinema productions with their outdated technology. To stop this development, the 'Motion Picture Promotion Corporation' (MPPC) pushes through an insane law: A quota system is supposed to protect the local film industry from foreign imports (mainly from Hollywood, but also from Hong Kong), but in the end it ruins it thoroughly for years to come. According to Article 16 of South Korea's Film Law, a film company can only import a foreign film if it exports four domestic productions with a total profit of at least US$20,000. However, resourceful business people quickly come up with the idea of how to circumvent 'the worst film law that has ever existed in Korea': professionals from Hong Kong realize films with Cantonese stars in secret co-productions, which on the one hand look like foreign productions and go down well with the Korean audience and on the other hand, as 'Korean' productions, do not fall under the quota system for imported films. (Of course, the name of the co-producing Hong Kong company was not allowed to appear in the opening credits of the Korean version.)

So it is likely that the film was officially released in South Korea as a South Korean production. This probably also explains why a copy of the film is stored in the Korean Film Archive.

Excerpts from "Woo: Life and Movies" courtesy of Thomas Gaschler.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

The other parts of the article are also very interesting (the studio ruined the movie with new shots).

Like I said, I'm aware of the Korean quota system and the issues it can cause when it comes to co-production credits. And I also agreed with you in terms of doubting that a Korean director should be sharing co-director credit with Liu Chia-liang (or in these other cases, Sammo and John Woo). I think we're on the same wavelength when it comes to this. The only thing I add is that in cases like those with big names it's easier to find data to prove (or get a pretty solid idea) how much input the Korean directors did or didn't have in the directing department.

In regards to Heroes Shed No Tears, the KMDB site does list John Woo as a director (alongside Shin Wi-gyoon ), even though it seems John's name doesn't appear on the Korean film print or poster. It's likely that John Woo's name is in some of the data sheets in the Korean Film Archive, but unless I send them a copy of my goddamn passport (there's no way in hell ) they won't let me look.

It could be less bold than it seems for Shin Wi-gyoon to get a co-director credit, as the Korean print could be very different, with a lot more Korean scenes shot by him. A lot of the co-productions like Shaolin Vs Lama have very different prints for the Korean market, with a much larger Korean cast and different scenes, it's a shame that so many of them are inaccessible . The KMDB lists the run-time as 1h35, whereas my HKL copy runs at about 1h25, so these prints surely differ in some way.

In these more obvious situations, I think it'd be appropriate to include the Korean director on the database but demote them to assistant director. I don't think the argument that "Their name isn't included on the Hong Kong film print, so they shouldn't be added to the database" isn't a sound one, by the logic about 70% of the database would disappear



The films involving less well known (and therefore re-searchable) directors, it becomes a bit more tricky to decide on whether it's appropriate to give them a director credit or assistant director credit. I don't believe that the existence of the quota system and how it's led to problems with the credits on some co-productions is enough evidence to use it as a rule for all, rather than something to bear in mind.


BTW: The article was interesting, thanks for taking the time to share it. Good points, but I'm not sure if I agree with everything sai, especially the negative view of the quota system, as many of the Korean have mixed feelings on it. Some even say that without it Korean cinema would never of become the powerhouse of Asian cinema that it is today.


On an irrelevant note to the real conversation: The use of the birth names of HK actors might be because they're taken off their passports, like with the Gwailos, that's why you end up with credits like Jonathan James Isgar.

Cheers

J.J.Hayden wrote:In these more obvious situations, I think it'd be appropriate to include the Korean director on the database but demote them to assistant director. I don't think the argument that "Their name isn't included on the Hong Kong film print, so they shouldn't be added to the database" isn't a sound one, by the logic about 70% of the database would disappear

You can't "demote" them and just pick a credit that you feel is appropriate based on nothing concrete. Since they're credited as directors in the Korean data, I agree that it would be appropriate to credit them that way - if we didn't know about the very real issue of the fake co-productions. Because of that, we have good reasons to doubt those attributions and we need more concrete evidence that these directors had any involvement at all in the production. Nobody's saying that their names shouldn't be added only because they aren't credited in the movies - it's because we know that Korean directors are and have been falsely credited on HK films, so a lot more data is needed to justify it.

As for the issue of genuinely different versions/movies like the Korean cut of Heroes Shed No Tears that was profiled in that article... it seems to be a bit of a gray area at the moment. We haven't really discussed it and codified it yet, but at least I think we ought to list significantly different cuts (especially in the case of: different credits/title, with different actors and differently edited) individually. Lumping everything together is simply messy and can be confusing. If there really do exist different Korean versions of all these movies, I don't see any issue in listing them separately with the appropriate credits.

If in doubt create a new film entry and annotate in the summary or in editor notes.

It has long been my intention to add film "versioning" to allow for these sorts of variations within a film and for the various international prints. But there is just so much grey area, and so many possibilities to consider, that my efforts reach an impasse. I invite feedback on this matter. But again for now, given the technical restraints the database imposes, please do feel free to create new films with annotation. And in the meantime I will make some attempt to address the technical limitations.

If in doubt create a new film entry and annotate in the summary or in editor notes.

Mo man tai

Thanks for the confirmation. I'll add it to my list of things to do. Wish I could help out with the tech stuff, but that's out of my league .

Also specifically regarding Adorable Treasure Hunt [1983], I'll add the 6 missing Korean cast members (there's 7, but Chao Le-hsi is actually a translation from the Hanja for Jo Rak-hui, so I'll also upgrade her page too), some will require me to create pages for them. I'll add ID's to the corresponding photos (there's only about four) and add a few more. I'll also add Hsu Pu-liao's Korean name to his page under alias and add Jang Eun-seon to the cast of Monkey War, as she apparently is in that film too with director Kim Jong-seong.

Removed the tagging of Hsu Pu-Liao for that image:

https://hkmdb.com/db/movies/image_detai ... ay_set=eng

It shows one of the gangsters and not Hsu. Like the movie I added that image 2020 to the database and I watched the whole movie. I guess it is a Korean actor.
Thanks for the ID of the other Korean actors on the images.

I'm asking in regards to Return To The 36th Chamber, as stated earlier I think most of us are a bit suss on the Korean co-director credit and I wouldn't mind moving to assistant director or something, but without definitive proof that the Korean director's name was slapped on for the Korean quota etc., is it right to remove it?

In that case (unlike other movies) the movie not looks like shot in Korea. 3 Korean actors appear - but all are in many other Hong Kong and Taiwan movies.

It shows one of the gangsters and not Hsu. Like the movie I added that image 2020 to the database and I watched the whole movie. I guess it is a Korean actor.
Thanks for the ID of the other Korean actors on the images.

What!! I thought it was him, who else would have such a weird face
Thanks for the kind words.

In that case (unlike other movies) the movie not looks like shot in Korea. 3 Korean actors appear - but all are in many other Hong Kong and Taiwan movies.

The main 3 Korean actors have done work in Hong Kong (Best Kwon, Bruce Lai etc.) but there's actually several more Korean actors in it that haven't (as far as I'm aware) worked in Hong Kong. Some have (as you say) been in Hong Kong/Taiwan cross-overs filmed in either Korea or Taiwan, so it could be that some was of the film was shot in Taiwan. But, like you, I can't spot any scenes where I can say for sure "That's Taiwan (or Korea)". I suspect there could be another print with more time spent with the Korean actors, but I've no material evidence to support this. So, for now I'll remove Kim Jong-seong and if I come across a different Korean print I'll create a new page and link them, as Bob suggested.

Thanks for the input.