The North American trailer is now available.

http://movies.yahoo.com/feature/memoirsofageisha.html

I'm obviously basing this on just the trailer, and I hardly want to come across as some kind of champion of "proper" ethnic casting, but this looks like a typically (caucasian) American glamour approach to documenting the workings of another culture, and indeed an aspect of that culture that has been documented ad infinitum by Japanese filmmakers themselves over the past 70 years.

I once started a thread over at Home Theatre Forum regarding the off-kilter casting choices of Chinese "box-office" names to play Japanese characters, and this trailer, at least, bears out my initial concern. While that thread was ultimately closed because it devolved into not unexpected back-and-forth volleys about being able to tell Chinese people from Japanese people, I now feel even MORE strongly that these characters should have at least been played by Japanese actresses. Michelle Yeoh, Gong Li and Zhang Ziyi may be three of the most beautiful and visible Asian actresses to western audiences, for what that's worth, but they're hardly the big selling feature of this movie to a wide audience. They're just the filmmakers "easy out" rather than taking the risk with faces that might be known to an even smaller percentage of the population. Namely, us.

And they speak ENGLISH, fer chrissakes!

This will be the kind of movie that will be seen by many North Americans who don't normally go in for Asian cinema or arthouse fare, but will feel so much better about themselves after seeing this glamourous period film because they think they've been given valuable insight into an alien culture.

I'm well aware of the arguments in favour of casting Chinese actresses as Japanese characters and using English as the primary language: "they're just actresses, and good ones at that, so why CAN'T they have the gigs? Brits play Germans all the time!", "Asian people can't always tell Asian people apart, so what does it matter where they come from?" "The use of English will probably be like it was in Red October, where a subtle transition indicates they are "really" still speaking Japanese while we "hear" them in English." Blah Blah Blah. I STILL think they'd have been just as well off casting a few better-known Japanese actresses in these roles, not only for "authentic" looks, but also for the immense talent that is just as readily available in Japan as it is in China. Even the lack of English speaking abilities one might attribute to Japanese actresses (if it were to be true - who knows?) is hardly an issue, since Zhang Ziyi's English skills are still poor enough to suggest she learnt much of her dialogue and cadences phonetically for this film (although she comes of reasonably well). Plenty of actors can do that.

I also have to wonder if we'll hear the same criticisms from Asian naysayers that they levelled at CROUCHING TIGER for it's inherently westernized approach to characterization and subsequently poor performance at various Asian boxoffices.

This will most likely be a DVD rental for me.

Thoughts?

I'll wait to see if reviews are overwhelmingly positive and then make a decision. Most likely a rental, but because I think all three actresses (Gong Li, Michelle Yeoh and Zhang Ziyi) have such incredible screen presence I could be tempted to go (matinee, back row, ear plugs )

I do find it somewhat ridiculous that you have Chinese actresses speaking English in a film about Geisha (what is the plural of that? "Geishas" sounds wrong)... but the Ziyi/Gong/Yeoh factor is the only reason I'm likely to end up watching the film, so I can't entirely argue with their casting

Brian Thibodeau wrote:I'm obviously basing this on just the trailer, and I hardly want to come across as some kind of champion of "proper" ethnic casting, but this looks like a typically (caucasian) American glamour approach to documenting the workings of another culture, and indeed an aspect of that culture that has been documented ad infinitum by Japanese filmmakers themselves over the past 70 years. [snip]
This will be the kind of movie that will be seen by many North Americans who don't normally go in for Asian cinema or arthouse fare, but will feel so much better about themselves after seeing this glamourous period film because they think they've been given valuable insight into an alien culture.

LMAO

Touche, Brian. I agree completely.

Just for the record:

Once upon a time there lived a german author in Bad Seegeberg, his name was Karl May. He wrote fantastic stories about the wild, wild west and Apaches, Sioux, ... without having ever left his home.
One of his most famous works was the story about a single Apache: Winnetou. In 1963 they made a movie:

They filmed in Yugoslavia.
The Apache 'Winnetou' was played by a French, Pierre Briece. (As I recall he could only speak French).
The German 'Old Shatterhand' was played by the American Lex Barker.
The American 'Sam Hawkens' was played by the German Ralf Wolter.

There was no Indian Language used.

And nobody ever complained. So what's it with those Japanese Actresses?
Why should they talk in Japanese in an American Movie? And - most important - who would understand them?

Anyway, I rarely watch American movies. But guess...

jocutus wrote:There was no Indian Language used.
And nobody ever complained. So what's it with those Japanese Actresses?
Why should they talk in Japanese in an American Movie? And - most important - who would understand them? Anyway, I rarely watch American movies. But guess...

Well, there is somewhat of a difference between a "good" and enjoyable film, as opposed to one that, say, gives cultural insight...or in Hollywood's case, all too frequently, pretends to give cultural (and/or historical) insight. You'll also find that most people here prefer to watch movies where the actors speak their native language, and the film is subtitled.

guilao wrote: You'll also find that most people here prefer to watch movies where the actors speak their native language, and the film is subtitled.

So do I.

There was that Mini-Series in the 1980 called "Shogun", which was quite an impact: you heard "Japanese spoken" wherever it aired.

This new movie will not leave any scars. It might wake one or another's interest, but mostly it will be forgotten within a week after watching. Whether there is a Japanese Actress or two, or three...

I'm not into missionary work, so I'll leave it at that.

BTW: Of course you noticed already that I'm no native speaker. So if I make any horrible mistakes, please drop me a note(pm).

Just for the record: Once upon a time there lived a german author in Bad Seegeberg, his name was Karl May. He wrote fantastic stories about the wild, wild west and Apaches, Sioux, ... without having ever left his home. One of his most famous works was the story about a single Apache: Winnetou. In 1963 they made a movie: They filmed in Yugoslavia. The Apache 'Winnetou' was played by a French, Pierre Briece. (As I recall he could only speak French). The German 'Old Shatterhand' was played by the American Lex Barker.
The American 'Sam Hawkens' was played by the German Ralf Wolter.
There was no Indian Language used.

The Italians used to do these quirky, myth-sized versions of Old West tales as well. Spaghettis, I believe they were called. They were often immensely enjoyable, in no small part because their makers never wanted the audience to feel like you were going to gain some valuable, fact-laden insight into the lives of cowboys, indians, robber barons or whores and the inequities of the times in which they lived. The trailers never sold them as such, either. The themes of brotherhood, loyalty, unrequited love and payback writ large were appropriated from Hollywood, filtered through Italian cinematic conventions, and shipped back to the mainland to generally high praise and ultimately iconic status. Perhaps if the book and movie for MEMOIRS OF A GEISHA didn't have this air of Importance around them from the very beginning, I wouldn't be so quick to judge. Hell the Japanese have crafted plenty of Geisha pictures that would be the cinematic equivalent of those Macaroni Westerns - colourful, sleazy B-pictures with no greater importance than to program a few theatres and provide a few guilty thrills, and maybe even mock the pretensions of the culture along the way.

This new movie will not leave any scars. It might wake one or another's interest, but mostly it will be forgotten within a week after watching. Whether there is a Japanese Actress or two, or three...

Since it won't leave any scars and will be forgotten by many viewers after a week, would it have been such a Big Financial Risk to go with any of dozens of exceptionally talented Japanese actresses and at least give the piece a sense of verisimilitude? As it stands, the Hollywood GEISHA looks akin to many other "girl fighting the system for her independence" Hollywood epics. Why not just call it NORMA-KO RAE or SILKROOD and be done with it?

It's been ages since I saw what little I saw of TV's SHOGUN, but at the very least, its central character was caucasian, so IF the Japanese actors/characters spoke English in his presence, it wasn't something you cuoldn't imagine happening in Japan in that time. I do seem to recall subtitles on that show, but the memory is vague. GEISHA, on the other hand, looks like its performed in English throughout to pander to the American box-office and recoup its undoubted expense.

Mind you, it would be interesting to see what Japanese filmmakers would have done with the material, but then we'd have to "suffer" through subtitles.

And you'll recall my earlier post, where I said:

I'm well aware of the arguments in favour of casting Chinese actresses as Japanese characters and using English as the primary language: "they're just actresses, and good ones at that, so why CAN'T they have the gigs? Brits play Germans all the time!", "Asian people can't always tell Asian people apart, so what does it matter where they come from?" "The use of English will probably be like it was in Red October, where a subtle transition indicates they are "really" still speaking Japanese while we "hear" them in English." Blah Blah Blah

It's not like I didn't smell this comin'...

Brian - are you hoping for this to be good but expecting the worst?

I'm personally torn between wanting to see some of my favorite actresses prove their acting talents to western audiences (I no idea why I care about this) and the realization that this may lead to more typecasting...

kind of a double-edged sword

Believe it or not, I wouldn't mind if the movie turned out to exceed my expectations. I'm sure with American studio money behind it, it won't want for production value, and there's no doubt that all three actresses are phenomenal, not to mention the cast members who are ACTUALLY Japanese. But for some reason, I just don't think I'll need to see it on the big screen (not that I'd get to see a Japanese take on the story on the big screen, anyways, even if they did make one!). Obviously, that's just subjective speculation based on one trailer, but I just have a small amount of difficulty with some of the decisions Hollywood people make with regards to "foreign" subject matter. But then again, I suppose I'm a purist who, if I wanted to see a film about Japanese geisha, would be just as likely search out a peer-praised JAPANESE film about Japanese geisha. As such, my thoughts on this are probably pointing away from the majority.

Oh yes, and good point about the typecasting. Hadn't given that much thought.

Brian Thibodeau wrote:The North American trailer is now available.


This will be the kind of movie that will be seen by many North Americans who don't normally go in for Asian cinema or arthouse fare, but will feel so much better about themselves after seeing this glamourous period film because they think they've been given valuable insight into an alien culture.


This will most likely be a DVD rental for me.

Thoughts?

I think you are giving the North American movie patron either too much or not enough credit regarding how he or she will react to this or any other art-house type movie.

Almost all of them (plus most of those who are habituates at the local theater that shows movies with subtitles) will respond to "Memoirs of a Geisha" by saying "I liked it/disliked it because....

The reasons will be the same that they apply to any movie they see and will generally be in response to the narrative.

For example "It wasn't as good as the book."

or "I didn't like/did like _____________ (insert personal response to a character not the way the character was played by the actor).

or "It was too long."

For most people that I know movies are entertainment--they are not looking to be challenged or to learn about another culture. I think the general response to "Memoirs of a Geisha" will have the same structure and content as other movies they see.

I will see at during its first week in the theaters, mainly for the reasons noted above. It looks entertaining.

Okay, I'm way late on this, but my two cents, give or take a penny:

Brian Thibodeau wrote:I'm obviously basing this on just the trailer, and I hardly want to come across as some kind of champion of "proper" ethnic casting, but this looks like a typically (caucasian) American glamour approach to documenting the workings of another culture, and indeed an aspect of that culture that has been documented ad infinitum by Japanese filmmakers themselves over the past 70 years.

I once started a thread over at Home Theatre Forum regarding the off-kilter casting choices of Chinese "box-office" names to play Japanese characters, and this trailer, at least, bears out my initial concern. While that thread was ultimately closed because it devolved into not unexpected back-and-forth volleys about being able to tell Chinese people from Japanese people, I now feel even MORE strongly that these characters should have at least been played by Japanese actresses. Michelle Yeoh, Gong Li and Zhang Ziyi may be three of the most beautiful and visible Asian actresses to western audiences, for what that's worth, but they're hardly the big selling feature of this movie to a wide audience. They're just the filmmakers "easy out" rather than taking the risk with faces that might be known to an even smaller percentage of the population. Namely, us.

Total agreement.

Being a Hollywood-driven vehicle, they had to use established Asian names, and apparently none of them were Japanese. Bleah. I'm surprised they didn't cast Caucasians like they did in The Good Earth, some 70+ years ago.

Being Asian, I'm pretty livid about the casting, so I have no interest in this flick at all. Yeah, it's spiteful and possibly selfish, but if you were in my shoes......

And they speak ENGLISH, fer chrissakes!

And pretty poorly from what I've heard. Which makes the film even more ridiculous.

If you want real Asian flavored films, rent/buy Raise the Red Lantern, Jou Dou, Twlight Samurai, et al... You won't be disappointed.

It's never too late! Plus we learn more and more about new members this way!

Believe it or not, I STILL haven't seen this film. My girlfriend has, and she found the mangled English a bit harsh and had an overall indifferent reaction in spite of the beautiful production values. I think she would have preferred subtitles, as I suspect I would have, which in turn would have necessitated the use of Japanese actresses for the parts if they wanted to sound even the least bit accurate.

I'm sure I'll get around to it one day, and who knows, maybe with my expectations lowered (mostly thanks to my own big mouth) I'll end up liking it. Oh the irony!

I guess I keep coming back to my earlier comment:

I'm well aware of the arguments in favour of casting Chinese actresses as Japanese characters and using English as the primary language: "they're just actresses, and good ones at that, so why CAN'T they have the gigs? Brits play Germans all the time!", "Asian people can't always tell Asian people apart, so what does it matter where they come from?" "The use of English will probably be like it was in Red October, where a subtle transition indicates they are "really" still speaking Japanese while we "hear" them in English." Blah Blah Blah. I STILL think they'd have been just as well off casting a few better-known Japanese actresses in these roles, not only for "authentic" looks, but also for the immense talent that is just as readily available in Japan as it is in China. Even the lack of English speaking abilities one might attribute to Japanese actresses (if it were to be true - who knows?) is hardly an issue, since Zhang Ziyi's English skills are still poor enough to suggest she learnt much of her dialogue and cadences phonetically for this film (although she comes of reasonably well). Plenty of actors can do that

It's not so much that they ultimately cast this film the way they did (which I understand from a box-office perspective)—after all, no actor should be expected only to play just their own nationality. These three ladies are undeniably good actresses (though some would argue me on Zhang Zi-yi). Ultimately, I think my beef stems from a personal disappointment that Hollywood couldn't, for once, go against tired expectations instead of lazily hiring the three most prominent Asian actresses "westerners" were likely to know. But hey, it's all about the box office, I suppose!

Brian Thibodeau wrote:would have necessitated the use of Japanese actresses for the parts if they wanted to sound even the least bit accurate.

Never underestimate Hollywood. Bleah.

I'm sure I'll get around to it one day, and who knows, maybe with my expectations lowered (mostly thanks to my own big mouth) I'll end up liking it. Oh the irony!

I suppose that would be the first sign of the Apocalypse, eh Brian?

I can't see myself ever seeing this film. It just rubs me the wrong way.

Time to pop The Last Samurai into the player...

This all reminds me of another failed attempt to bridge Hollywood (or at least the British version of it) with another fabled film culture, namely Bollywood. The movie is called BRIDE & PREDJUDICE, directed by Gurinder Chadha, who did what I thought was a wonderful job with BEND IT LIKE BECKHAM.

Sadly, growing up Indian and watching Bollywood musicals does not[/] mean you 're automatically the best candidate to direct one. Not that they don't try hard—and the film [i]looks great for it—but they just don't capture the essense of what works in Bollywood films, despite a commendable effort. The American-style high concept template in which they try to squeeze the standard Bollywood tropes is what nearly does it in.

It's a film made by outsiders and it shows: the western audience is given a comfy avatar in the form of a handsome caucasian British male (or was he American?) with whom the Indian heroine, much like the one in BECKHAM, falls in love despite familial and cultural barriers. I doesn't hurt that the girl is played by the lovely Aishwarya Rai, a Bollywood mainstay, but in conceeding the need to please the widest demographic (who hardly showed up anyways), the filmmakers populated the cast with the most recognizable "western" Indian actors, created what sound like literalized and exceedingly weak English versions of Bollywood-style songs and designed dance numbers that grew increasingly sloppy as the film went on.

(with regards to the music, to these ears, it's so much better when it's sung in the Indian language and subtitled, or even unsubtitled, since I've been told that many of the songs in Indian musicals rarely exist to advance the plot—the way they would, say, in a Broadway musical—so much as to convey the feeling of the moment and stop the narrative in its tracks)

But what can you do? Good or bad, these films at least attempt to bridge culture gaps, even if I did wish more people would simply watch a movie from the original country instead of requiring a white guy to be present to play the straight man (hello, Tom Cruise!). And they often start up dialogues like this onw in certain pockets (at least online, anyways), so I guess they can't be all bad.

Just predictable.

Excellent example, Brian.

Yes yes, the handsome, righteous caucasian male. Uh huh.

Dude, don't get me started on the biased interracial coupling of caucasian males and non-caucasian females in commercials and films (The Joy Luck Club is a loathsome example)...

Oddly, is recently saw an IKEA commercial where an Asian woman was paired with an Asian man... Who'd a thunk it??? Needless to say, I did a double take and wanted to call IKEA to thank them. LOL.

It does seem that when images in advertising are shown of interracial couples, it's usually a caucasian guy with a non-caucasian girl (Asian, Latino or Black, for the most part), although I must admit I have seen the reverse beginning to appear up here in Canada, at least. I think it was a big poster at my bank that had an Asian guy with a Caucasian girl, and then another magazine ad that featured a Black guy with a Asian girl, both of which, I think, reflected certain realities of North American society.

As for images of Asians with Asians, like the IKEA ad you mention (or Caucasians with Caucasians, or Blacks with Blacks, for that matter), there's still plenty of that going around to reinforce traditions.

I'm not so sure that the Caucasian guys in movies like BRIDE & PREDJUDICE are necessarily meant to be taken as righteous or somehow superior to the males of the "other" culture, so much as they are simply meant as conduits for "western" audiences who may not aleady be familiar with that culture's customs or films. Makes it easier for more conservative types to open their minds without leaving the sanctity of their living rooms, I suppose. But I would say, based on my own unscientific experience, the higher profile the movie about interracial relationships, the more likely the Caucasian component of the relationship will be a guy. But again, that's just based on movies I've seen or read about. There's probably plenty of movies about Caucasian women mixing with other cultures, but I just can't recall them at the moment, or perhaps haven't even seen them.

Once upon a time, I think your point about biased couplings may have held more water, but these days, the fact is we live in a mixed culture, no matter how hard the newer-immigrant communities try to stick together or the older communities wish we still had miscegenation laws, and it's one where Asian-Caucasian relationships have actually started to outnumber other interracial relationships, for any number of reasons (good or bad, depending on your perception).

Me, I think it's all for the better in the long run, and I only wish I could see what people will look like 500 years from now!

Brian Thibodeau wrote:I think it was a big poster at my bank that had an Asian guy with a Caucasian girl

You gotta take a picture of that.

I think it's different in Canada than here in the States: I don't think the above image would fly down here in any advertisement... Seriously.

Once upon a time, I think your point about biased couplings may have held more water, but these days, the fact is we live in a mixed culture, no matter how hard the newer-immigrant communities try to stick together or the older communities wish we still had miscegenation laws, and it's one where Asian-Caucasian relationships have actually started to outnumber other interracial relationships, for any number of reasons (good or bad, depending on your perception).

Don't get me wrong, I wholeheartedly agree with that, but the portrayals in the media are still one-sided.

At least down here.

This film and the book are "packaged" to appeal to western faniisies of whoa nd what is Eastern. Geisha: A Life: by Mineko Iwasaki was much better and brutally accurate and honest.

bulthistle wrote:This film and the book are "packaged" to appeal to western faniisies of whoa nd what is Eastern.

No argument here.