The spelling of Eric Suen's name . . .

[Brian Thibodeau]

We have what I think is a very bizarre transliteration of Eric Suen's Chinese name in the database:

http://hkmdb.com/db/people/view.mhtml?i ... ay_set=eng

I'm admittedly no expert in these things but "Suen Yaw-Uei" seems like a ridiculous way to spell out his name. He doesn't spell it that way himself, either. Take a look at his blog at AliveNotDead:

http://www.alivenotdead.com/ericsuen/bl ... all_page_2

Scroll to the end of the first entry on the page above and you'll see he spells it Sun Yao-wai. I've added this as an alias to his entry, for now. Since he's commonly known (in English, at least), as Eric Suen (as in the title of his blog), I believe we should chance the main DB name to Eric Suen Yao-wai and ditch this strange looking "Yaw-Uei" business.

A search of "-uei" only returns Suen's listing. A search of "Yaw-" only brings up entries for Suen and Richard Wang Yaw-Chinq, someone who appears to have TWO bizarre mispellings in his name: "Yaw" and "Chinq" (with a "Q", which actually sounds kind of offensive).
http://hkmdb.com/db/people/view.mhtml?i ... ay_set=eng

Make the "Yaw"s into "Yao"s and the "Chinq" into "Ching" perhaps?

[Bearserk]

As far as I am concerned using the name Eric Suen himself uses sounds like a good idea to me, as for the other, someone more knowledgeable have to help you there.
Maybe raising the topic in the additions and modifications section is more appropriate and helpful

[Brian Thibodeau]

Yeah, maybe I'll post it there, too. I like to think everyone checks both of these forums, but you never know . . .

[kenichiku]

Hey Brian, et al.

If you ever get a chance to peruse anglicized Chinese names within the ethnic Chinese communities in Southeast Asia, this transliteration is not all that bizarre: "Suen Yaw-Uei" clues me that the referencing author 'sees' Eric Suen's Chinese name thru his own Minnan, Hokkien or Teochew 'lens'. These dialects are usually spoken by majority of outlying ethnic Chinese communities in Taiwan, Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand etc. Though I recall this kid did have an early singing career in Taiwan but still don't know if he's Hongkong-nese, Taiwan or Nanhai by birth but I'd still think it's appropriate to stick to your guns since this dude has clearly focused his career as a dedicated Canto-pop/film/TVB star based out of HK-SAR with strictly HK/China credits so if it were me, I'd subjugate or nix the ethnic interpretation of his name altogether.

[Brian Thibodeau]

Thanks for the feedback (and welcome back!).

I left "Suen Yaw-Uei" as an alias in Eric Suen's DB entry for the express reason that what you say probably holds water. Ad odd as I find that spelling, it had to come from somewhere, and it could mean that someone on this planet might just search him out here using that spelling, thus it deserves to be included, but it was the blog maintained by the man himself that offered the biggest clues as to what the main spelling of his name should be here. This subject was also brought up in Additions & Modifications here (viewtopic.php?f=7&t=50632&p=75617), where the discussion turned to some other odd spellings in the DB, and my lack of clarification in one spot probably gave Dennis a migraine!

[dleedlee]

FWIW, reportedly born and schooled in Hong Kong, native of Chiu Chow.

Suen Yaw-Uei probably came from this HKFA English entry of Freaking Spicy Killer:

Suen Yaw-uei, Waise Lee Tzyy-shyong (aka Waise Lee), Lee Tyng-yi, Hwu Kae-shin (aka Daisy Wu), Her Jia-jiu, Lee Jye-sheng.

edit: I forgot about that thread, Brian!

[Brian Thibodeau]

:idea: Suen Yaw-Uei probably came from this HKFA English entry of Freaking Spicy Killer:

Suen Yaw-uei, Waise Lee Tzyy-shyong (aka Waise Lee), Lee Tyng-yi, Hwu Kae-shin (aka Daisy Wu), Her Jia-jiu, Lee Jye-sheng.

Wow. Looks like we've got a few more aliases to add. Just gave my FREAKING SPICY VCD a freaking spicy spin and those all check out (except Daisy Wu, who is billed as Hwu Kai-Shin on screen)

Other English spellings from the opening credits, which will probably yield some necessary aliases:

Executive Producer: Lee Pao-Tang
Production Supervisor: Lee Yu-Sheng
Associate Producer: Lee Yi-Shiou
Producer: Zeng Su-Fang
Production Manager: Lee-Pei Shya
Director: Chen Mun-Chuan

Unfortunately, disc one of my VCD won't load on my computer using VLC, so I can't get screenshots for the opening credits (which are actually scored with a cover of Vince Guaraldi's famous "Linus and Lucy" theme from the PEANUTS cartoons! ). I'm pretty sure someone (maybe me?) uploaded the closing credits to the forums in days gone by, from which the current DB listing was expanded.

[dleedlee]

Presumably, Mandarin is the correct language (as per HKFA)(and added), not Cantonese (as entered). Can you tell?

[Brian Thibodeau]

Both tracks are dubbed on my VCD, and rather poorly, but as this appears to be shot in Taiwan and the story doesn't necessitate both languages be heard (as in characters from one place dealing with those from another), I'd have to go with Mandarin as the official language. Not sure how we ended up with both in the DB listing.

[dleedlee]

Not sure how we ended up with both in the DB listing.

It said Cantonese, until I added Mandarin. I left Cantonese pending further...

[kenichiku]

Just to ramble some context, many commercial indie Taiwan, HK/Taiwan joints during that time were post-dubbed by their HK studio counterparts or local post-production house sometimes simultaneously in both dialects, with Cantonese only for the local HK market & the Mandarin dialect reels sent to local Taiwan & globally. Sometimes the Cantonese HK reels find its way roadshowing aboard in Cantonese markets globally too (where I used to catch as a kid) & during 2nd billing, the same feature would return but this time it's the domicile Taiwan reels exhibited in Mandarin. Conversely I recall when the Cantonese domicile product, (really only a small cottage industry at the time if not backed by Shaws) were falling out favor in the mid-60s up thru the Mando-era heyday, some Canto-titles were exhibited dubbed for Mandarin release just so they could compete in places like Taiwan, SE Asia & even in the same Cantonese populated Chinatowns overseas. I used to find it odd seeing Liu Kei, Lee Heung Kam, Leung Sing Bo or Nancy Sit bust out in Mandarin dialogue while at the same time sing their musical numbers in their homegrown Cantonese. The same can be said about hot Korean (Shin Yeong-gyun, Cheng Jeong Hwa) & Japanese (Kuro-san, Mifune, Zatiochi) titles of that era that were re-dubbed for Chinese markets, no different from the 70s Kung Fu craze titles abroad that were all dubbed in English.

The economics along with then governing politics before made for a more interdependent/integrated market across the straits so if you see 'Cantonese' under its HKFA entry for some Taiwan-domicile or joint Taiwan/HK title, it just means HKFA possesses that version of their local release reels tagged on their shelves. When I say joint, I mean the money may be from HK while the talent was not or a title may have been strictly Kuomintang money, talent & solely shot domicile to Formosa but the venture held a HK studio/distributorship charter registered to say, some Kowloon office on Nathan Rd.

To pick a definitive dialect for an old title, the giveaway may indeed be the reading of lips but the title's official dialect is not just determined by the tongue of one lead actor (i.e. Bruce, Michael Hui or 90s Hsu Chi) but by % of the cast who delivered the majority of the dialogue the script was acted in, then the subject matter, the culture of its production team, location, etc. I dunno, I can usually tell as you can too when a post-dubbed title has been 2nd Gen. re-dubbed, the 'infected' acoustic atmospherics, the overlaid foley work & even the score isn't the same; usually inferior & don't get me started on boneheaded or improper/commingled subtitling of say Canto-names for non-Canto characters ahem, attn: IVL/Celestial...er that's another discussion. This tip also applies to the younger Canto-domicile editors connected with the HKFA who may be reading this. [edit, grammar]

[Brian Thibodeau]

To pick a definitive dialect for an old title, the giveaway may indeed be the reading of lips but just by the title's official dialect determined by the tongue of one lead actor (i.e. Bruce, Michael Hui or 90s Hsu Chi) but by % majority of the cast from the dialogue that was voice acted in, then its production team, subject matter, location, etc. I dunno, I can usually tell when a post-dubbed title has been 2nd Gen. re-dubbed, the 'infected' acoustic atmospherics, the overlaid foley work & even the score aren't the same, usually inferior . . .

This is all well and good, and at times, I (and others no doubt) share your ability to "sense" the right track through a variety of factors, such as you mention (watching lips is often my first line of attack, easier done with the clarity of DVD over VCD in most cases; location can be an easy clue, too), but the problem here might be the fact that the film in question is FREAKING SPICY KILLER, a cheapo little programmer with a few marquee faces and a whole bunch of never-will-bes, and everything dubbed rather perfunctorily in BOTH dialects. The location is definitely not HK, most likely nowhere in the New Territories, and very similar to the Taiwan I've seen in countless movies from there; just don't quote me on that. Soundtrack music is the same on both tracks, which is actually kind of cool because the producers blatantly steal music from arguably some of the biggest names ever to be "borrowed" for inclusion on an Asian movie soundtrack: Madonna, Aerosmith, Bon Jovi, Bernard Herrmann, even Vince Guaraldi's Charlie Brown music. PEANUTS, people!! Anyways, the clips linked in that last sentence will probably be of little use beyond cheesy entertainment value, as they're taken from the VCD and, well, it's YouTube, so clarity is compromised further (not that matching lips seemed to be a priority of the audio editors anyways), but I can tell you that both tracks do sound rather cobbled together in a fashion all too typical of no-budget shelf-fillers like this one.

[kenichiku]

but the problem here might be...FREAKING SPICY KILLER, a cheapo...with a few marquee faces and a whole bunch of never-will-bes, everything dubbed rather poorly in BOTH dialects...location is definitely not HK, most likely nowhere in the New Territories, and very similar to the Taiwan I've seen in countless movies from there

I'm not surprised in the least re: the newer post-handover output although like many, I've gravitated away from newer HK titles but I'm beginning to like what I hear (even though I never heard of it) if it recalls the cheese factor & the spirit of the freewheeling HK days past. If location rich & rural, maybe you'll have to start looking at wildlife, foliage, fauna, magma or geological landforms, lol.

Re: music rips, I'm sure this is a newer title that cannot be legitimately distributed today to No. America w/the reciprocal international copyright treaties in place, am I right?

[dleedlee]

To clarify, the HKFA lists Mandarin, our db originally listed only Cantonese, which is what i was questioning.

The HKFA collection consists of a vcd, probably the same Deltamac edition that has both Cant. and Mand. tracks.

[Brian Thibodeau]

I'm not surprised in the least re: the newer post-handover output although like many, I've gravitated away from newer HK titles but I'm beginning to like what I hear (even though I never heard of it) if it recalls the cheese factor & the spirit of the freewheeling HK days past. If location rich & rural, maybe you'll have to start looking at wildlife, foliage, fauna, magma or geological landforms, lol.

It has actually come down to that in some films. I've seen a LOT of Taiwanese films that are shot in what appear to be unfinished residential/commercial/industrial developments that are grown over with weeds and foliage. Free sets, basically, made of grungy stone walls and exposed rebar in the middle of open fields, but utterly devoid of character or regional architectural signifiers or even skylines of recognizable cities in the background. Makes one think these were simply the remnants of building booms that never really boomed. FREAKING SPICY has scenes in these kinds of locations, including some gunfights, which are presumably easier to shoot in abandoned, forgotten spaces where there aren't any neighbours to complain, walk through shots, etc.

I'm not surprised in the least re: the newer post-handover output although like many, I've gravitated away from newer HK titles but I'm beginning to like what I hear (even though I never heard of it) if it recalls the cheese factor & the spirit of the freewheeling HK days past.

Re: music rips, I'm sure this is a newer title that cannot be legitimately distributed today to No. America w/the reciprocal international copyright treaties in place, am I right?

Well, technically, I suppose. I bought it here in a Chinese mall just a couple of years ago, but I doubt I'd have found it at a major chain retailer then or now, but more because of it's lowly status than it's music content, which few people even know about because it's a title that was barely on the radar when it was first released. Then again, there are plenty of older, well-known Hong Kong and Taiwanese movies released on DVD right now by respectable American distributors that still have their "stolen" soundtracks intact.

I've often wondered how Hong Kong/Taiwan/Chinese filmmakers, more than almost any others on earth it seems, get a pass when it comes to this practice, even when their products are being sold in major North American retailers, yet in recent history, some hapless file-sharer IN the U.S., doing exactly the same thing we all did in the pre-computer days—not-for-profit sharing and copying LPs, cassettes, VHS and the like—were hounded into the poorhouse. I realize it probably wasn't worth the time and money for U.S. movie studios and record companies to pursue legal cases against fly-by-night film producers in every far-flung corner of the globe who were ripping them off and profiting from the practice from the 60's to the 00's (if that was the case, even a big-time player like Shaw Brothers would have been sued out of business—did that company EVER make a movie that didn't steal from western music scores? ), and granted, it's not as common today as it was even in the early part of the century, but movies like FREAKING SPICY still leave me agog that they could even be purchased on North American soil.

Not that I'm complaining, because, even though FRAKING is a shitty film overall, it does faintly recall the freewheeling days of years prior, only with far less money in the budget. If you can find it for a dollar or two as I did, then it might be worth a look, even though it won't impress on any level except the size of it's copyright-infringing cajones.

I'm not surprised in the least re: the newer post-handover output although like many, I've gravitated away from newer HK titles but I'm beginning to like what I hear (even though I never heard of it) if it recalls the cheese factor & the spirit of the freewheeling HK days past.

Re-quoting this bit because another thought crossed my feeble mind. As you mention, a lot of people gravitated away from certain films post handover, and this has always bothered me, especially when I sense a certain disdain veteran fans, online "experts" and even published scholars for films beneath a certain budget plateau post-1997. While it may make them feel like "keeping up" with Hong Kong cinema got progressively easier once the former colony was churning out a comparatively smaller handful of filmed, theatrically released product with each passing year, a LOT of titles—trash or otherwise, shot on film OR video—were simply deemed unworthy of serious consideration by the cognoscenti. I can forgive this in one regard only: these folks simply couldn't justify shelling out for films that were, in all likelihood, going to be pale shadows of their larger-budgeted brethren. And honestly, you could tell some of this stuff was going to be bad just by looking at the packaging (NEW PROJECT BLAIR, anyone? Anyone? Hello?. . .Hello?. . .Hello?)

The years 1998 - 2004 saw the release of torrents of direct-to-video and shot-on-video product that represented, in my opinion, one last, protracted attempt (cash-grab?) to keep a dwindling industry and it's membership gainfully employed. Let's face it, there weren't enough A-list productions for everyone, so the lesser lights and character players plied their trade in poverty-stricken C- and D-list (Z-list?) movies that in turn provided gigs to crew people who couldn't necessarily survive between gigs on top-tier productions, as well as newbies who just wanted a chance to make something, anything that would make it out into the market. These films have largely stopped being made, their makers presumably graduating to more respectable fare, or moving into television (which seems robust even today), or returning to their day jobs, or moving back in with their parents. Whatever the case, there's an abundance of titles out there, though increasingly harder to track down, that have virtually no critical representation in print or online, which to me, is rather sad. (one of the few sites I can recall delving into these kinds of films was Peter Nepstad's Illuminated Lantern site, though even he seemed to abandon the pursuit some time back).

For what it's worth, I've done my best to snap this stuff up from dollar VCD bins in Chinese malls and 2-for-1 deals at a favoured downtown Chinatown haunt, and I know fellow HKMDB'ers Bearserk and Teddy Wong could build houses out of the stacks of D- and Z-movie VCDs they've purchased over the years (Buyoyo is still a rich resource), so at least I can rest assured that these movies, while flying under the radar of nearly all HK film fans, will in time be properly represented here via increasingly inclusive DB cast/crew listings.