The Digital Scrounge: Mid-year Pit-stop

[Mike Thomason]

And another financial year ends, and I take a little look back on all the DVDs I bought between the beginning of the year and now. It's pretty scary when I do it like this...especially when I add asterisks to the ones I've actually watched (and that's taking into account films I'd already seen before I bought them on DVD, of which there were many!). Eek! What a freaky (as in, did I really spend that much?) list to look at in one sitting...

200 Pounds Beauty (South Korea)
Ad-Lib Night (South Korea)*
After Death (aka: Zombie 4) (Italy)
After This, Our Exile (Hong Kong)*
Aggressives, The (South Korea)
Amorous Woman Of Tang Dynasty, An (Hong Kong)
Antarctic Journal (South Korea)*
Apartment (South Korea)*
Arang (South Korea)*
Art Of Seduction, The (South Korea)
Art Of The Devil (Thailand)*
Art Of The Devil II (Thailand)*
Barefoot, Gi-Bong (South Korea)
Barking Dogs Never Bite (South Korea)*
Battle Of Wits, A (China)
Best Of Best, The (Hong Kong)
Between Love And Hate (South Korea)*
Big Heat, The (Hong Kong)*
Bizarre Love Triangle (South Korea)*
Blood Rain (South Korea)*
Bloody Aria, A (South Korea)*
Bloody Tie (South Korea)*
Blue (South Korea)*
Blue Crush (United States)*
Born To Fight (Thailand)*
Boss X File (South Korea)*
Butterfly Murders, The (Hong Kong)
Bystanders (aka: Diary Of June) (South Korea)*
Calla (South Korea)
Captain Kronos Vampire Hunter (Great Britain)
Casino Royale (United States/Great Britain)*
Chang (South Korea)*
Cheaters (aka: My Girlfriend’s Boyfriend) (South Korea)
Chihwaseon (South Korea)
Chungking Express (Hong Kong)*
Cinderella (South Korea)*
Citizen Dog (Thailand)*
City Hunter (Hong Kong)*
Closet, The (Hong Kong)*
Clueless (Hong Kong)
Coast Guard, The (South Korea)*
Cold War (Hong Kong)
Colic (Thailand)
Conduct Zero (South Korea)
Confession Of Pain (Hong Kong)*
Cruel Winter Blues (South Korea)
Curse Of The Golden Flower (China)*
Cutie Honey (Japan)*
Daisy (South Korea)
Dangerous Flowers (Thailand)*
Dark Forest (South Korea)*
Dark War (Hong Kong)
Darkness Bride (Hong Kong)
Dasepo Naughty Girls (South Korea)*
Day For An Affair, A (South Korea)*
Death Note (Japan)*
Death Note: The Last Name (Japan)
Demons Of The Mind (Great Britain)*
Diary Of A Big Man, The (Hong Kong)
Dirty Carnival, A (South Korea)
Don’t Look Back (South Korea)
Dorm (Thailand)*
Dracula Has Risen From The Grave (Great Britain)*
Dracula, Prince Of Darkness (Great Britain)*
Eastern Condors (Hong Kong)*
Eighth Happiness (Hong Kong)
Emanuelle Around The World (Italy)*
Emanuelle In Bangkok (Italy)*
Erotic Ghost Story (Hong Kong)*
Exiled (Hong Kong)*
F*** Off (Hong Kong)
Fallen Angels (Hong Kong)*
Family Matters (South Korea)
Family Ties (aka: Birth Of A Family) (South Korea)
Family: Action Vs Love (South Korea)*
Fear In The Night (Great Britain)*
Fearless (China) (Director’s Cut)
Fearless Vampire Killers, The (United States/Great Britain)*
February 29 (South Korea)*
Fighting To Survive (Hong Kong)
Final Victory (Hong Kong)
First Amendment Of Korea, The (South Korea)*
Forest Of Death (Hong Kong)*
Foul King, The (South Korea)*
Fox Family, The (South Korea)*
Frankenstein Created Woman (Great Britain)*
Fu Bo (Hong Kong)
Fun & Fury (Hong Kong)
Funny Movie, A (aka: Fun Movie) (South Korea)
Gangs 2001 (Hong Kong)
Gangster High (South Korea)*
Ghost House (South Korea)*
Ghost, The (aka: Dead Friend) (South Korea)*
Green Chair (South Korea)
Gubra (Malaysia)*
Hanbando (South Korea)
Happy Birthday (Hong Kong)
Happy End (South Korea)
Happy Ero Christmas (South Korea)
Happy Hour (Hong Kong)*
Harmonium In My Memory (South Korea)
Haunted Cop Shop, The (Hong Kong)
Hearty Paws (aka: Heart Is…) (South Korea)
Heaven’s Soldiers (South Korea)
Heavenly Mission (Hong Kong)
Hidden Floor (South Korea)*
Holiday (South Korea)
Homicidal Maniac (Hong Kong)*
Host, The (South Korea)*
Hot For Teacher (aka: Who Slept With Her?) (South Korea)*
Hotel Rwanda (Great Britain/South Africa)
I Wanna Be Your Man!!! (Hong Kong)*
I Will Wait For You! (Hong Kong)*
I’m A Cyborg, But That’s OK (South Korea)*
Ichi The Killer (Japan)*
Il Mare (South Korea)
IQ Dudettes (Hong Kong)*
It’s A Wonderful Life (Hong Kong)*
Jan Dara (Thailand)*
Jenny, Juno (South Korea)
Joint Security Area (South Korea)
Kick The Moon (South Korea)
Killing Birds (Italy)
Kwaidan (Japan)*
Lady Iron Chef, The (Hong Kong)*
Lara Croft, Tomb Raider: The Cradle Of Life (United States/Great Britain)
Legend Of Evil Lake, The (South Korea)
Legend Of Seven Cutter, The (aka: Escape From Charisma) (South Korea)
Let’s Love Hong Kong (Hong Kong)*
Lethal Angels (aka: Naked Avengers) (Hong Kong)*
Lethal Ninja (Hong Kong)
Libera Me (South Korea)
Lifeline (Hong Kong)*
Love In Macau (Macau)
Love Is A Crazy Thing (South Korea)
Love Is Butterfly (Hong Kong)
Love Is Not All Around (Hong Kong)
Love Me Not (South Korea)
Love Story (Singapore)*
Love Talk (South Korea)
Loving Him (Hong Kong)
Lucky Guy, The (Hong Kong)*
Mapado 2: Back To The Island (South Korea)*
Market’s Romance (Hong Kong)
Marrying High School Girl (South Korea)
Marrying The Mafia (South Korea)*
Marrying The Mafia 3: Family Hustle (South Korea)*
Master Kims (South Korea)
Maundy Thursday (South Korea)
Memento Mori (South Korea)
Metrosexual (Thailand)*
Millionaire's Express, The (Hong Kong)*
Ming Ming (Hong Kong/China)
Missing Girl (aka: World Of Silence) (South Korea)*
Mission Sex Control (aka: Live Good) (South Korea)*
Mob Story, A (Hong Kong)*
Monday Drive (aka: Educating Kidnappers) (South Korea)
Moodori (South Korea)*
Mountain Patrol (China)
Mr. 3 Minutes (Hong Kong)*
Mr. Butterfly (South Korea)
Mr. Housewife (aka: Mr. Quiz King) (South Korea)
My Brother (South Korea)*
My Mother Is A Belly Dancer (Hong Kong)
My Mother, The Mermaid (South Korea)
My Scary Girl (South Korea)
My Wife Is A Gangster (South Korea)*
My Wife Is A Gangster 2 (South Korea)*
My Wife Is A Gangster 3 (South Korea)*
Naked Killer (Hong Kong)*
Natural City (South Korea)*
No Mercy For The Rude (South Korea)*
Now And Forever (South Korea)
Oh! My God (South Korea)
Old Miss Diary (South Korea)*
Once In A Summer (South Korea)
One Missed Call 2 (Japan)
One Missed Call Final (Japan)
Operation Makeover (South Korea)
Out Of Justice (aka: This Is Law) (South Korea)*
Over The Border (South Korea)
P (Thailand)*
Peking Opera Blues (Hong Kong)*
Perfect Couple, The (aka: Best Romance) (South Korea)
Perfect Match, A (South Korea)*
Plague Of The Zombies, The (Great Britain)*
Plastic Tree (South Korea)
Platonic Sex (Japan)*
Please Teach Me English (South Korea)*
Protégé (Hong Kong)*
Public Toilet (Hong Kong)
R U Ready? (South Korea)*
Rain Dogs (Malaysia)*
Reptile, The (Great Britain)*
Reunion (Hong Kong)
Revenge Of Frankenstein, The (Great Britain)*
Roommates (South Korea)*
R-Point (South Korea)*
Run 2 U (South Korea)
S Diary (South Korea)*
Samsara (Tibet)
Save The Green Planet! (South Korea)*
Saving My Hubby (South Korea)*
Scars Of Dracula (Great Britain)*
Seducing Mr. Perfect (South Korea)
Sex & Zen (Hong Kong)*
Shanghai Knights (United States)
She's On Duty (South Korea)
Show Show Show (South Korea)
Siamese Twins, The (Hong Kong)*
Silver Knife (South Korea)*
Sinking Of Japan (Japan)*
Sirens (Australia)*
Sister Emanuelle (Italy)
Some (South Korea)*
Sorum (South Korea)
Sound From The Dark (Hong Kong)*
Spin Kick (South Korea)
Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter...and Spring (South Korea)*
Super Fans (Hong Kong)
Sworn Revenge (Hong Kong)
Sympathy For Lady Vengeance (South Korea)*
Takeshis' (Japan)*
Tale Of Two Sisters, A (South Korea)*
Tears & Triumph (Hong Kong)*
Tears Of The Black Tiger (Thailand)*
Texas Chainsaw Massacre 2, The (United States)*
There Is A Secret In My Soup (Hong Kong)*
This Charming Girl (South Korea)
Those Were The Days (Hong Kong)
Three Fellas (aka: Bar Legend) (South Korea)
Time (South Korea)*
To Do Or Not To Do (aka: Rules Of Dating) (South Korea)*
Tom-Yum-Goong (Thailand)*
Traces Of Love (South Korea)
Twilight Garden (Hong Kong)*
Twins Mission (Hong Kong)*
Twins, The (South Korea)
U-Man (Hong Kong)*
Umizaru (Japan)
Unborn But Forgotten (South Korea)*
Unborn, The (Thailand)
Uninvited, The (South Korea)*
Unseeable, The (Thailand)
Vampire Controller (Hong Kong)
The Victim (Thailand)
Violent Cop (Hong Kong)*
Volver (Spain)*
Warriors Of Heaven & Earth (China)
We’re Going To Eat You (Hong Kong)*
Wet Dreams (South Korea)*
Wet Dreams 2 (South Korea)
When Fortune Smiles (Hong Kong)
Whispering Corridors (South Korea)
Wise Guys Never Die (Hong Kong)
Wishing Stairs (South Korea)
Woman Is The Future Of Man (South Korea)
Woman On The Beach (South Korea)*
Zombie 3 (Italy)*

...and just think fellas -- I support a wife; pay rent, bills and living expenses; buy my wife new clothes and accessories every other week; run a car; and am planning a trip back to my wife's home in the near future. All this, done with...no credit cards! The mind boggles...

(Your clue is the addition of a dependent spouse... )

[cal42]

That's a pretty long list . I won't pretend I've heard of them all, but there's a few great films on there.

One question: which DVD of PEKING OPERA BLUES have you got? I assume it's the HK one, but what is it like, quality-wise?

[Mike Thomason]

One question: which DVD of PEKING OPERA BLUES have you got? I assume it's the HK one, but what is it like, quality-wise?

Sorry for the late reply...

Unlike the majority of internet Hong Kong cinema geeks, who are really format fans over film fans, I don't laud Joy Sales as the scourge of the modern age nor the second coming of the Antichrist -- so your assumption is correct!

I picked up the current remastered release from Joy Sales in HK and found it to be pleasing on all fronts, both picture and newly created audio (to be honest, I don't listen to the monaural tracks on these things -- and the fact of the matter is, anyway, that a LOT of the supposedly "original audio tracks" that diehards carp on about simply aren't available as such anymore being that Star remixed the majority of their lead titles for Dolby surround back in the days of laserdisc, and those are the tracks they've been working with for home video out of HK ever since). So, in a nutshell, I thought it was an exceptionally good disc of an extremely over-rated film.

Let the naysayers begin their assault...

[cal42]

Thanks, I might get that one then. Oh, and obviously, I love the film .

[Mike Thomason]

Thanks, I might get that one then. Oh, and obviously, I love the film .

Oops...please don't hurt me!

I just felt that, like many of Tsui's films, it just hasn't aged all that well...but that's just me and we all know my tastes are a bit askew with the majority of online Asian cinemaphiles...

[Brian Thibodeau]

Well, at least that didn't stop you from picking it up! Sounds like a decent quality disc, if nothing else!

Does it at least stand up in the context of the time in which it was made some 20-odd years ago? Haven't seen it for a few years, but so many films don't age well that I find myself wondering if they were really designed to in the first place. POB has always seemed—to me, anyways—to be very much a part of the era in which it was made, but I can see how that might not be such a good thing in 2007.

Interesting thoughts Mike, and I'd be keen to hear more of your impressions on this film, like why it doesn't work for you, or if it did in the past, and whether new converts to HK cinema should approach with caution. No naysaying from me on audio stuff since a) I'm not one to fret over remixes, tweetybird additions etc. and b) it's clear you know as much as (or more than) that very majority of film geeks you mention when it comes to audio mixes and the like. Hopefully, though, no full scale assaults are in the offing!

...and we all know my tastes are a bit askew with the majority of online Asian cinemaphiles..

I wonder if it has anything to do with the earth's polarities?


.

[cal42]

Non-geeks are safe with me, also. As far as Home Cinema goes, I just have your standard, old-fashioned Nicam stereo. I mainly care about the quality of subs most of the time, although I like a nice transfer.

The reason why I asked about POB particularly is here in the UK we had a channel that showed HK films occasionally and it has to be said that some of them were really well subbed. I remember being a bit disappointed in the HKL release of POLICE STORY for the reason that some of the subs didn't seem quite so accurate or funny. Which is why I've always been a bit worried about being disappointed with another version of POB. I feel the same about THE LEGEND OF FONG SAI-YUK - there were some great subs in that!

[Mike Thomason]

In the case of Peking Opera Blues, what you have on the Joy Sales disc is regular formula for Fortune Star's digitally remastered range -- the original theatrical subtitle translations cleaned up and largely corrected for grammar, spelling and so forth. Even though there is a LOT of hoohah put into the fact that Joy Sales are retranslating the films in the Legendary Collection series, they are still, on the whole, only re-translations of old theatrical subtitle script and NOT re-translations of what's actually being said (I know this for a fact as I have spoken via email and private messaging with Tin Lun Lau, a fan who works on them -- in many instances, he doesn't even see titles that he retranslates; he is simply sent subtitle scripts by Joy Sales).

The problem with assessing films on an English translation is, that unless you are actually fluent in the original language being used and can understand what's really being said, then all you can do is only assess the subtitle translation from your own command of English and not its accuracy against the original language used in the film. I see folk over at the Asian DVD Guide forums carry on all the time about how much better the English subtitles are on the non-remastered Fortune Star titles by comparing the new translations (lifted, as I said, from subtitle scripts) against older translations from previous home video releases -- and they're laughable really because many of those self-same people state time and again that they can't read Chinese or speak/understand Cantonese! Assessing translations on such inconsequential grounds is pointless -- as all one is doing is evaluating the flow and literacy of the English translation, not its accuracy against the original language being used.

My wife, who is fluent in Mandarin, Teochew, Hokkein, Hakka and understands Cantonese, corrects what's being said in these releases all the time -- I haven't watched a single release from Joy Sales Fortune Star titles (remastered or non-remastered) where she hasn't said "They didn't say what it said in the subtitles, they said this...". And that's why I put little stock in sites/forums like ADG -- they're populated by people who only have a half-grasp of the facts (like complaining about remixed audio when they don't even have surround capabilities without being aware that downmixing multi-channel sound to stereo playback gives a false representation of the soundtrack), making judgement calls on what little they know over confirmable facts drawn from a greater stage. I myself only have limited understanding of Cantonese, but I am married to a Chinese lady and I am going to take the word of someone of ethnic extraction who has spoken and read a language(s) all her life over some white boy making value judgements from a heap of half-arsed comments he read on the internet.

Here's a classic example of the differences in (English) subtitles from a brand new film: in one sequence of Herman Yau's Gong Tau, An Oriental Black Magic Benz Hui (or Hui Siu Hung, if you like) is being interviewed in relation to a criminal associate of his and the subtitles say something along the lines of "I became a good citizen but he became a criminal" -- my wife laughed when the line was delivered and I asked her why such a simple line of dialogue was so funny. She said that what Hui actually said was that he "became a good a person and Lam Chiu became a bad one", as well as the usage of local colloquial dialect made the line's delivery funny (ie: a simple, rough criminal speaking in local slang and making an offhand simple-man's observation).

In this instance, and without the aid of a firm understanding of the language and its tones/usage I missed the joke -- as will anyone without a solid grounding in Cantonese. BUT, even the English translation against what was actually said wasn't really accurate in the slightest -- people can argue semantics, from an English speaker's viewpoint, but essentially they will still be wrong unless they have a full command of Cantonese.

QED

[Mike Thomason]

Well, at least that didn't stop you from picking it up! Sounds like a decent quality disc, if nothing else!

Does it at least stand up in the context of the time in which it was made some 20-odd years ago? Haven't seen it for a few years, but so many films don't age well that I find myself wondering if they were really designed to in the first place. POB has always seemed—to me, anyways—to be very much a part of the era in which it was made, but I can see how that might not be such a good thing in 2007.

Twenty odd years ago, when I was first becoming familiar with Hong Kong cinema, yes, it was something unique and stood out from other things I was watching at the time -- it had multiple characters, a decent story, humour and a bit of history...which Jackie Chan/Sammo Hung/Yuen Biao films of the era largely didn't contain (they had the humour, but were largely designed as action films to entertain at lowest common denominator level -- I don't see any of those film as much more than populist entertainment). But like just about any of Tsui's films when revisited later, the film just doesn't hold up and age gracefully like multiple other films from the era.

In retrospect, though he was an innovator and a super-producer, I find Tsui Hark as a director exceptionally slipshod and slack. He's no great storyteller at all -- he simply threw in everything, including the kitchen sink, in his approach to cinema that I guess he was hoping that with so much going on people wouldn't immediately see the deficiencies in his cinematic craft. The old adage about certain Chinese foods comes into play here: with Tsui's as a director, you got a smorgasbord of flavours and delights, but hours after your feast you always felt hungry again (well, I did anyway). Tsui's directing jobs were always a flurry of light, colour and noise -- but once you sifted through all of that they were fairly shallow affairs.

You must also remember that I've never been a fan of Brigitte Lin. I understand that she was iconic in Chinese cinema and hugely revered amongst the Chinese filmgoing community, as well as the West, and that her Taiwanese productions made her a superstar, but her masculine-feminine appeal never washed with me and her one-note dour school-marm screen persona (haughty expressions and furrowed brows) always felt exceedingly shallow to me -- she seemed to have made her fame, to me, on delivering exactly the same performance in every film, no matter what the genre or role. I was always more a fan of the Cherie Chungs, Sally Yehs, Pat Has and Pauline Wongs of the era who exhibited infinitely more range, charm and ability than the matronly Lin.

The film is definitely a fine example of its era (which is why I have a DVD copy in my possession), as well as potentially something marginally a cut above its contemporaries, but as with all of Tsui's directorial efforts I find it exactly a product of its era over that old chestnut, "a timeless classic". Fun to watch and revisit once in a blue moon, rough around the edges, indicative of Tsui's older frenetic "bulldozer" style, but a product of another long-past age and as a result more a nostalgia piece. The director version of Tsui, for me, was now and always will be, a B-movie filmmaker often given to working with A-movie budgets and casts.

As an aside, I recently revisited Tsui's early We're Going To Eat You (1980), his second feature as a director, and found it interminably terrible. The acting was OTT to the point of embarrassing, the gore shoehorned in to accommodate the era, and Corey Yuen's fight scenes carried on forever bringing the film to a crashing halt every time they started. But in that early film, were all the prescient seeds of Tsui's brand of "kitchen-sink" cinema -- throw as much as humanly possible at the viewer in a ninety minute sitting and they'll be so bewildered and worn out come the end that hopefully they won't notice what a mess the film really was. Fifteen or so years ago, when I first saw it, the film just came across as "crazy" -- in a contemporary setting, and with my tastes having changed and refined, it all just comes across as sloppy filmmaking to me; it barely tells its story, bogging itself down in tangential excursions, over focussing on rhythm and flow. I guess, even now, for me that's always been the problem of Tsui's films -- they're just so damn unfocussed and all over the shop.

I hate to say it, but in hindsight and with the experience of years of viewing behind me, I actually find Wong Jing a far more polished and accomplished filmmaker (be it director, producer or screenwriter) than Tsui ever was!

[Brian Thibodeau]

I'm just glad Hong Kong movies have subtitles at all! Otherwise, where would any of us be?

You're so right about the relative insignificance of subtitle "upgrades" these days, and all the talk about it at many forums leaves me baffled. Even I know I'm not getting the full "treatment" when I watch a lot of Hong Kong movies, but I just can't be bothered to run online and gripe about it. I mean, don't people just wanna see as much of this great cinema as possible instead of comparing every little crossed "T" and dotted "I" ?? The discussions of such things the oft-mentioned-here ADG forums and elsewhere just make me sleepy, but of course, that's could just be a personal feeling. Others surely find some value in it, and more power to 'em, I suppose (I also thought there was way too much fan hubbub over the tweeting birds and such added to the Shaw Bros. DVDs. When I finally watched a few of them, I was like "THAT's what everyone's so pissed about?!?").

I'm in the same camp as you and many others when it comes to Cantonese (only minus the in-house expert. ): limited-to-modest grasp, but enough to—on occasion—get the real meaning of what's being said in spite of the subtitles, and that's when I'm proud that I've scored a little "victory" over my own limitations! But I could really care less whether I ever get "better" subs in the vast majority of cases because I just don't have time to revisit every single HK film I've watched (let alone wait til I'm 80 for everything to be re-re-re-released), and it rarely compromises my own personal enjoyment of the film (unless, of course, the film is poorly made, something perfect subtitles won't compensate for anyways! ). Some of those folks at other forums you mention seem to relish buying multiple rereleases of every significant film, sometimes just because of the very improvements in grammar of which you speak! Honestly though, I don't begrudge those who pursue such details, but personally I'd rather keep stuffing my head with movies I haven't seen, even if they're on below-average VCDs with burned in subs from that were written 20 years ago. One can still follow along well enough.

Not that anyone probably cares one way or the other, but it's a very safe bet that the English subtitles on virtually ALL Korean movies are just as misleading and/or watered down as the ones on Hong Kong movies. They just tend to get the grammar and punctuation right the first time around. I too have the benefit of a semi-translator!

[cal42]

As an aside for a second, I've been looking at other forums lately and some of them are dire, you know. Forums dedicated simply on what used to be cut from HK films in which country, etc etc. Totally pointless discussion, anyway seeing as how most of it doesn't apply anymore anyway.

Back on topic, I myself am not actually a fan of Tsui Hark either. He's done some utter, utter trash in his time (and I'm referring to some films that are held up to be "classics"). However, there are some things he's done that just hit the mark for me, and POB is one of them. I didn't expect to like it, but every time I watch it I really enjoy it. Yes, I suppose it is populist (and of course, I really like the Chan/Hung/Yuen films ) but I still find it a fun ride.

I've been learning Cantonese now for longer than I care to admit and I'm still rubbish. I'm coming to the conclusion that I'm always going to be rubbish (even my study-buddy is starting to lose patience with me, I think!). But I know enough to comprehend, like Brian, occasional bits and pieces and I've noticed that some (by no means all) of the western releases change the meaning sometimes and that does annoy me. And of course the HK versions have their own limitations, and I'd heard somewhere (I don't think it was here) that POB was a release that had unusually bad subs at some point. After what I'm used to on my VHS, this might hinder my enjoyment a bit.

[Mike Thomason]

Back on topic, I myself am not actually a fan of Tsui Hark either. He's done some utter, utter trash in his time (and I'm referring to some films that are held up to be "classics"). However, there are some things he's done that just hit the mark for me, and POB is one of them. I didn't expect to like it, but every time I watch it I really enjoy it. Yes, I suppose it is populist (and of course, I really like the Chan/Hung/Yuen films ) but I still find it a fun ride.

Indeed, Tsui has his moments, and I have to agree that some of his so-called "classics" are diabolical filmmaking by the measure of any country -- as I said, a B-director with A-list casts and budgets. Don't get me wrong, I do like Peking Opera Blues, but for me the enjoyment stems from the work as a "nostalgia piece" rather than some exponential "timeless classic"; it's very much a product of its era, IMO.

I have, in time, come to like a lot of the Chan/Hung/Yuen films too, but purely on a populist entertainment level, as there's definitely nothing appropriating rocket science behind their construction. And there's nothing bad about accepting various forms of cinema as entertainment in its purest form -- we live in an online film fan era where even the smallest and most meaningless cinema draws accolades and has meaning read into it (where there is, and was, none intended) over it actually being enjoyed for what it is.

Accordingly, what you have both said above is exactly the way I feel, and why you often see posts from me taking to task sectors of the online fan community -- whatever happened to just enjoying something for what it is: entertainment designed to take our minds off our daily woes for a couple of hours? More genuine, and honest, appreciation/dislike for cinema from fans, over nitpicking and trainspotting thata does little but completely devalue and deconstruct individuals' abilities to just be entertained would go a long way, once again IMHO...

That's why I keep coming back here, though sometimes I get frustrated by undercurrents (that have since largely been exorcised); the majority of people here can watch a film as a FILM, not a series of binary codes or whatever's in vogue to discuss amongst the trainspotters as a means to denigrate their viewing habits any other week, and thusly understand that a hobby can be fun as well as something you can enjoy immensely. Thanks heavens there's some normal film fans out here somewhere!

[Brian Thibodeau]

Back on topic, I myself am not actually a fan of Tsui Hark either. He's done some utter, utter trash in his time (and I'm referring to some films that are held up to be "classics"). However, there are some things he's done that just hit the mark for me, and POB is one of them. I didn't expect to like it, but every time I watch it I really enjoy it. Yes, I suppose it is populist (and of course, I really like the Chan/Hung/Yuen films ) but I still find it a fun ride.

I think the Tsui Hark nadir for me was probably LEGEND OF ZU, and yet, when the opportunity arose to see it in a rep theatre here about three years ago, I couldn't resist. I'd watched most of the man's film's in sequence once I got into this hobby, mainly because I'd heard so much about his style that I figured I should at least watch it's development in a chronological order, rather than comparing older films to ones he hadn't made yet, etc. Like Mike and POB, I don't consider LOZ a bad film, per se, and in fact gave it a conditional high grade when I reviewed it via DVD a couple of years prior to the aforementioned theatre screening, acknowledging that some people would find it to be overkill. It's like this massive onslaught of filmic invention that virtually buries characterization (not that Louis Koo and Ekin Cheng could have done much in that regard, at the time), but since that often seems to be Tsui Hark's modus operandi, I felt safe in praising the film for what it was, rather than what it wasn't, since the latter (however one chooses to frame it) probably never was part of the director's vision.

Mike's B-director-with-A-budgets is probably apt. But in Tsui's case, at least the the viewer is usually left with dazzled eyes to balance their unchallenged minds! Over here, we get somebody like Peter Hyams...

And there's nothing bad about accepting various forms of cinema as entertainment in its purest form

I'll second that! I dare say Hong Kong probably has a higher percentage of populist cinema than many other parts of the world, so to deny that is to indeed get mired in the eternal hunt for "meanings" that might not be there.

Thanks heavens there's some normal film fans out here somewhere!

Well, as normal as we can be! Don't forget, I'm in the middle of watching nine shot-on-video NEW OPTION features starring the legendary Michael Wong right now. Consecutively. I challenge any of you to top that! And surely the undercurrents here are a bit more tolerable than they are at certain other forums? I mean, you're bound to put up with it no matter where you go, but at least here, no one resorts to personal insults and slurs or snooty didacticism when someone disagrees with them. Seeing that at other HK-related forums is what keeps me hanging around here! Plus, the database is a nice bonus feature, so it's nice to know that contributions here will actually have some lasting effect.

[Masterofoneinchpunch]

And there's nothing bad about accepting various forms of cinema as entertainment in its purest form

I'll second that! I dare say Hong Kong probably has a higher percentage of populist cinema than many other parts of the world, so to deny that is to indeed get mired in the eternal hunt for "meanings" that might not be there.

...

Well, as normal as we can be! Don't forget, I'm in the middle of watching nine shot-on-video NEW OPTION features starring the legendary Michael Wong right now. Consecutively. I challenge any of you to top that!

Many arguments on art vs. entertainment (mostly it is pretentious folk who like to dismiss anything that is not esoteric) never seem to realize that creating an entertaining movie is not necessarily that easy so I tend to appreciate good cinema whenever I see it.

My Jove, multiple Michael Wong watchings

[Mike Thomason]

I also thought there was way too much fan hubbub over the tweeting birds and such added to the Shaw Bros. DVDs. When I finally watched a few of them, I was like "THAT's what everyone's so pissed about?!?")[/i].

Yep, I was in exactly the same boat -- but then I realised that the majority of those p***ing and moaning were probably (or in a number of cases, actually were) watching those discs and listening to the playback audio downmixed to two channels (stereo), which can automatically create a false sense of the sound-field. After that realisation dawned on me, I started to ignore many of the same Negative Nancys across the board.

Having gone from stereo to six channel surround in the last few years, I can tell anyone -- there's a marked different in aural representation between the two once multi-channel audio is played back correctly. Dependent on the unit used for playback, sometimes the downmix to stereo can be quite misrepresentative of the mix, as the rear channels are brought to the fore being that they are given equalised space in the left and right. But anyway, back to your regular scheduled programming after that brief digression...

[dleedlee]

You can call me Nancy.

I first noticed the birdies when The Kingdom and The Beauty came out. It didn't jump out at me the first time I watched it. Then upon watching it multiple times and other Shaw releases like The Bride Napping, The Blue and The Black, etc I started noticing that every outdoor scene would be accompanied by the birds and crickets. Eventually, I couldn't watch them anymore because I would anticipate every exterior scene or even a walk by a window, and sure enough *tweet* *tweet* *chirp* *chirp*. I started to cringe like Pavlov's dogs. I considered that maybe I should replace them with a vcd version and see if it didn't sound better but I never did. I've heard that later 'waves' of the Shaw releases muted the sound fx but I can't personally attest to it. And my poor Love Eterne, I prefer my old Taiwan bootleg version.

ymmv

[Mike Thomason]

But the question is: are you watching them with surround capabilities, or plain old vanilla stereo?

[dleedlee]

But the question is: are you watching them with surround capabilities, or plain old vanilla stereo?

I have a 5.1 setup, well it's 5.0 these days - to spare my neighbor.

I tried playing it in stereo thinking it might actually mute/blend the birdie sounds so that they would be less intrusive but no luck.

[Brian Thibodeau]

I tried playing it in stereo thinking it might actually mute/blend the birdie sounds so that they would be less intrusive but no luck.

I'm on a 5.1 set-up too, like a good number of forum members here. When I watched a couple of those early Shaw DVDs to see what all the fuss was about, I too switched from surround to two-channel and felt that the birdies were indeed audible either way. But unlike you and good many others Dennis, I felt that I could live with it, as I wasn't about to turn away from the goldmine that IVL was finally releasing to the world. Certainly these weren't always the precise soundtracks that Hong Kong audiences heard in 1960-something or 1970-something, but they weren't bad enough to take me out of the film, and I feared a long wait if I held out for something better in the future.

Keep in mind, though, that most if not all of the Shaw films predate my personal discovery of Hong Kong cinema, thus I don't have much of a yardstick to measure against as I never saw the movies in theatres, and never bought more than a literal handful of VHS martial arts movies back when that was the only option. So for people who may have grown up watching these films first-run, or in big-city grindhouses or on more-or-less-unadulterated VHS, I can sympathize somewhat.

[Brian Thibodeau]

My Jove, multiple Michael Wong watchings

It hurts. Oh, how it hurts.

[dleedlee]

Keep in mind, though, that most if not all of the Shaw films predate my personal discovery of Hong Kong cinema, thus I don't have much of a yardstick to measure against as I never saw the movies in theatres,

Actually, I never saw these films before either (except Love Eterne and a couple of really bad vcd bootlegs from sensasian). For me, it wasn't a case of the soundtrack being changed from what I previously remembered...my memory isn't that good. It's just that once I started to notice and then anticipate the sounds I couldn't not notice them anymore. It was as if there was some DVD production formula: outdoor scene - add birds, add crickets, walk by window - add birds, add crickets. I began to clench my jaw the whole time I was watching the movie, waiting, waiting, waiting... Nuts, huh?

[cal42]

My knowledge of Shaw films pre-DVD is pretty patchy too, but I certainly noticed the rerecording of certain musical passages with modern synths that wouldn't have been invented when the film was made. I just shrug it off though as "one of those things", along with the new sound effects and title sequences and whatever.

With the birds though, I think I've only seen one affected film (or I haven't noticed it in all of the others!). My initial reaction was "oh, that's quite nice, they've added some sound effects". After a minute or two, I thought "it's quite high in the mix, though". And then the inevitable "actually, this is starting to piss me off now".

[Mike Thomason]

I see folk over at the Asian DVD Guide forums carry on all the time about how much better the English subtitles are on the non-remastered Fortune Star titles by comparing the new translations (lifted, as I said, from subtitle scripts) against older translations from previous home video releases...

As an addition to this comment I made earlier, I've watched a couple more of the Joy Sales Legenday Collection discs over the last few days (namely Bless This House and Haunted Cop Shop) and I have to say -- I am STILL underwhelmed about these so-called "improvements" in the subtitles. House read okay, but some of the subs are timed rather poorly and some of the grammar is a bit mangled, whereas Cop Shop is a mess from the very start of the film, with spelling and grammar errors as well as out of synch timing (the title for the film comes up in the subtitle stream over the top of the first actors talking onscreen, putting their subtitles out of whack).

My honest assessment of the subtitles on the majority of the JSLC discs I've bought so far is that they needn't have gone to the effort of retranslating the subtitle scripts -- as some of the new translations exhibit more mangled spelling and grammar than their original releases. If I had any say, I'd recommend that JS just run with the supplied subs and stop wasting their time, and money, with new translations that are substandard on the whole. They'd get a lot more movies out on disc and lot faster too...

NB: The majority of these new "re-translations" aren't so much such, as simply different readings of the old subtitle scripts -- thus, they're not "new and improved", they're just different; my wife corrected the translations at least half a dozen times during my viewing of House -- so that confirms to me the "re-translations" are being done from scripts and not directly from the film, as has been pretty much known all along.