Something newly

[auconban]

The writer of the film Tracing Shadow Wei Jun-zi had interviewed Lam Suet and Clifton Ko Chi-sum as a writer in Sina.

Lam Suet said he acted the final boss in the film Story of Ricky.

Clifton said something about Otto,Chan.

The director of the film Diary of a Serial Killer is Norman,Chan.
The director of the film Key to Future and the film Devil's Woman is Norman,Chan,too.

And the film Stooges in Hong Kong,Under the Rose are directed by Clifton,Ko.

The other film directed by Otto,Chan are made by a group include by Clifton Ko,Norman Chan,Vicent Kok,Roman Cheung,Lee Lik-chi,Ronny Yu.

[calros]

If nobody stops me in 15 days I will merge them.

Added role to Lam Suet.

[Brian Thibodeau]

Merge who, exactly?

If I'm reading Auconban's post correctly, "Otto Chan" is some kind of collective comprised of Clifton Ko, Norman Chan, Vincent Kok, Roman Cheung, Lee Lik-chi and Ronny Yu, correct??

If so, I don't see how Otto Chan can be merged with any of them, because each man has a stand-alone directorial career, and more than one of them, apparently, has used the Otto Chan alias on Category III sleaze-a-ramas (most of which I've seen, no less ). Why do I get the feeling that "Otto" had a very busy casting couch. Lucky bastard!

Of course, If all of this is true, then once again we see the limitations of the current system for effective DB input.

"Otto Chan's" directorial output consists of the following (with actual directors noted according to Auconban's info):

Stooges in Hong Kong (1992) (actual director: Clifton Ko)
Pink Lady (1992)
Under the Rose (1992) (actual director: Clifton Ko)
Key To Fortune (1992) (actual director: Norman Chan)
The Final Judgement (1993)
Screwball '94 (1994)
Diary of a Serial Killer (1995) (actual director: Norman Chan)
Gates of Hell (1995)
Devil's Woman (1996) (actual director: Norman Chan)
Don't Tell My Partner (1997)

"He" also wrote and/or produced some of these, among other films.

But how can we assign the "real" directors to each one without negating the fact that he worked behind the pseudonym of "Otto Chan"?

Do we add "Otto Chan" as an alias to each person's DB page?

No matter what, Otto Chan's DB page needs to remain intact, but include the proper aliases and notations regarding his real identities.

I'm fascinated by this revelation. If it's true, it puts ALL of these films into a new analytical light for better or worse, and potentially negates at least some of what has been written about them up to now.

[calros]

I meant I will merge Otto Chan with Norman Chan.
and I will add Clifton Ko as co-director in "Stooges in Hong Kong" and "Under the Rose.
and I will add Clifton Ko, Vicent Kok,Roman Cheung,Lee Lik-chi,Ronny Yu as co-directors in the rest of films.

[Brian Thibodeau]

I meant I will merge Otto Chan with Norman Chan.
and I will add Clifton Ko as co-director in "Stooges in Hong Kong" and "Under the Rose.
and I will add Clifton Ko, Vicent Kok,Roman Cheung,Lee Lik-chi,Ronny Yu as co-directors in the rest of films.

I don't think that your first and third suggestions will work. The second is fine as that's what IMDB does.

"Otto Chan" is a most likely a pseudonym used by all of these filmmakers in various capacities (director, producer, writer, etc.) on a multitude of projects, possibly to conceal their involvement in steamy Category III movies.

A similar situation would be the use of the pseudonym "Alan Smithee" by Hollywood directors who wanted to dissociate themselves from certain films they'd made, albeit for different reasons than this Hong Kong group.

Having seen most of "the rest" of the Otto Chan films, I can say it's unlikely and unnecessary that FIVE directors were needed to complete any one of those pictures.

My take on all of this: various combinations from this group of filmmakers worked together on a lot of projects during the time period in question. Some were mainstream, so they used their own names. Some were very adult Cat. III movies. On these movies, they would each, independent of one another, use the pseudonym Otto Chan as the need arose.

For example, "Otto Chan" directed GATES OF HELL. "He" also wrote this film. But the director and writer of this film may not actually be the same person, but could easily be any TWO men from the list, both using the pseudonym to disguise their involvement. Likewise, the director and writer of GATES OF HELL could be any one of these men. The problem is, we don't know which one (or two!), and to assign five directors to this movie will create problems down the road when (or if) we learn which one of them actually directed it, and which one of them actually wrote it.

Hopefully Auconban checks back in here often enough that he can clear this up before you do any merging. If he can clarify Ko's comments in that interview in any way, it would be crucial.

Thanks to the continued lack of tools to properly input this kind of information into the DB, the workable option might be:

- Add "Otto Chan" as an alias to each of the other directors noted by Auconban,
- Add the list of other directors AS ALIASES to Otto Chan's DB listing.
- NO merges.
– Where known, both Otto and the real director credited, a la IMDB:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100649/

This isn't ideal, but since Bob may be out of the picture for the next 18-20 years, it will have to do.

[calros]

According to HKFA, Otto and Norman are the same person, so they must be merged.

Usually HK movies are directed by a director "in situ" and a supervising director which usually does not appear in the sets. That must be the case of "Stooges in Hong Kong" and "Under the Rose"

In the other cases, I will wait.

[Brian Thibodeau]

According to HKFA, Otto and Norman are the same person, so they must be merged.

Usually HK movies are directed by a director "in situ" and a supervising director which usually does not appear in the sets. That must be the case of "Stooges in Hong Kong" and "Under the Rose"

In the other cases, I will wait.

Sounds reasonable, especially the second part (as long as they are billed separately), but I'd give anything to interview Clifton Ko about this. There could exist a possibility that HKFA "merged" Norman and Otto simply because they too discovered that he directed a few pictures under that name, but assumed he was the only one to do so (we know their site has errors just like we do here sometimes). We now have strong reason to believe that many directors used this name, which suggests it's a pseudonym. If that is the case, the "executive director" rule might not apply. I'm not saying your theory doesn't hold water, because it certainly does. The problem is, so does mine, and I'm wary of making too many changes until we can get clarification (or better interpretation) from Auconban, if he's able to do so.

Also, if you merge Norman and Otto, Norman will subsequently be credited with directing all of Otto's movies, and we now have reason to believe that isn't the case (Clifton supposedly admitted to doing at least two, for starters). Merging Otto with any of the directors, writers or producers who used the name will have the same problematic result. Example: if Clifton Ko really directed movies using the name "Otto Chan", then we would have to merge Clifton and Otto as well, because they're technically the same person, which means Clifton, Otto and Norman would all appear to be the same man, according to HKMDB.

I still think that needs to be a delicate operation . . .

[calros]

I think I should clarify the interview.

Ko said that Norman Chan and Otto Chan were the same person.

He also said that other movies directed by Chan, were directed, also, by other uncredited people, that is, they worked in the movie but their names do not appear in the credits. That does not mean they were part of any "collective".

For example, the movie "Swordsman". It was directed by King Hu, (actually: Ching Siu-Tung, Raymond Lee and Tsui Hark), and also (uncredited) by Ann Hui and Andrew Kam. But that does not mean "King Hu" is a collective composed by Ching, Lee, Tsui, Hui and Kam. King Hu is King Hu, and later there were more directors.

[Brian Thibodeau]

I could've used that clarification a few posts back. Preferably in Auconban's first post which seems to have led to misinterpretation on my part.

I know about the SWORDSMAN II directors. The Patrick Yau/Johnnie To movies would be a similar situation. The reason I wondered if Ko and Co. were possibly functioning as a "collective" is because the OP's wording can easily be construed that way to some readers.

So, presumably Clifton Ko directed, by his own admission, STOOGES IN HONG KONG and UNDER THE ROSE, but gave credit to Norman's alias of Otto Chan?

He also said that other movies directed by Chan, were directed, also, by other uncredited people, that is, they worked in the movie but their names do not appear in the credits. That does not mean they were part of any "collective".

The only concern I have is your earlier suggestion to list all of them (Clifton, Vincent, Roman, Ronny and Lee Lik-chi) as co-directors of all the other "Otto Chan" movies. It's far more plausible that one (or maybe two) of them directed any given picture, but not all six of them. I've seen most of the "other" films, and they do not look like the work of five or six different people, most of whom have very unique directorial styles. Obviously, I could be wrong -- the nekkid and willing young starlets in these films might have had the whole group scrambling to find cameras and shoot scene, hoping it would all fit together in post. -- but until we know for sure, I don't think listing all of them is wise as it would only propagate potentially false information going forward.

I'm fine with the other DB updates: merging Norman and Otto, and listing Clifton Ko as co-director of STOOGES and UNDER.

I'm still pissed that the HKMDB has no convenient, easily-referenced way for us to clarify this interesting information in the listings themselves other than via the "plot summary" field, which dumps any info at the bottom of the page, or the "editor note" field, which doesn't make the info available to the public. This is where a "trivia" link in the sidebar would be extremely handy.

[auconban]

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_5572f33e0100h749.html

[auconban]

I can't communicate in English fluently.The original interview information is in the link upstair.

[auconban]

Maybe you can ask Wei Junzi directly.His email is weijunziwei@sina.com

[Brian Thibodeau]

Thanks for the information! Calros cleared some of it up for me in previous posts, but hopefully we can get more details some day (that email link might come in handy!).

[auconban]

Otto,Chan is just a soul.But when Norman left to Golden Harvest he still signed Otto in his film.

[calros]

1st. part.
merged

Otto Chan Juk-Tiu ?
Aliases: Chan Ou-Tou
???
Filmography (1992-1997)

Action Director
Gates of Hell (1995)
Producer
Under the Rose (1992)
All Over the World (1993)
Way to Success (1993)
Devil's Woman (1996)
Director
Stooges in Hong Kong (1992)
Pink Lady (1992)
Under the Rose (1992)
Key To Fortune (1992)
The Final Judgement (1993)
Screwball '94 (1994)
Diary of a Serial Killer (1995)
Gates of Hell (1995)
Devil's Woman (1996)
Don't Tell My Partner (1997)
Writer
Key To Fortune (1992)
Gates of Hell (1995)
Don't Tell My Partner (1997)

and

Norman Chan Hok-Yan ?
???
Filmography (1979-1994)

Production Manager
See-Bar (1980)
House of the Lute (1980)
Cream, Soda and Milk (1981)
Love Massacre (1981)
Once Upon a Mirage (1982)
Last Affair (1983)
The Occupant (1984)
Mummy Dearest (1985)
Kung Hei Fat Choy (1985)
It's a Mad, Mad, Mad World (1987)
Magnificent Warriors (1987)
You OK, I'm OK! (1987)
Porky's Meatballs (1987)
The Gang Don't Shoot Straight (1987)
It's a Mad, Mad, Mad World II (1988)
It's a Mad, Mad, Mad World III (1989)
Story
The Nobles (1989)
Gambling Ghost (1991)
It's a Mad Mad Mad World Too! (1992)
Director
The Nobles (1989)
Happy Ghost V (1991)
The Inside Track (1994)
Planning
The Family Strikes Back (1986)
Easy Money (1987)
Executive Producer
Double Fattiness (1988)
In the Line of Duty III (1988)
Vengeance Is Mine (1988)
Bless This House (1988)
In the Line of Duty 4 (1989)
Middle Man (1990)
Tiger Cage II (1990)
Love Is Love (1990)
Forbidden Arsenal (1991)
The Perfect Match (1991)
Writer
Illusions Come True (1979)
The Nobles (1989)