Westerners

by **PAUL MARTINEZ** » Wed May 23, 2001 5:46 pm

I had some time on my hands here so I thought I might address something which has been bothering me as of late. I have noticed that some of you on this forum have a pre-ordained view of what "westerners like" as opposed to true chinese. Yes I was born and raised in the U.S. and I love Hong Kong Cinema. Not just martial art films, not just Shaw Bros. Productions. I watch Comedies, Dramas, Thrillers, etc. I don't pretend to speak for all westerners, only myself. When I hear comments like "westerners don't care about plot only action" or "if there isn't great kung-fu then westerners don't like it" I find it absurd. I too don't like films I can't understand or make sense. Unfortunately due to the fact that I cannot read or speak Chinese puts me at a great disadvantage when viewing films. The subtitles due little justice to relate some parts of the story. Just as if you saw an U.S. film with Chinese Subtitles. Stephen Chow's films are much more funnier to a chinese than I because much of the humor is based on a play on words which cannot be deciphered thru subtitles. It doesn't make me any more shallow a viewer. Even without a working knowledge of the language I feel I can tell good acting. Thru timing, facial expressions, body language, passion in their voice when the lines are spoken. Thru these things I decide whether or not I enjoy the performance. Whether or not I believe what I am reading and seeing is plausible or not. Sorry to get on such a soap box here but I just felt I needed to let it be known not to judge all non-Chinese alike.

by **senordingdong** » Wed May 23, 2001 7:09 pm

Speaking for myself, I agree with what you're saying. However, when I say "westerners" (or "gwailo" as most chinese call them) I mean the ignorant people who don't know a good Hong Kong movie from a bad one, the type of people who consider Romeo Must Die a good movie, the type of people who like dubs over subs, and the type of people who didn't like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon because there weren't enough fight scenes. You are clearly not one of these people and like Hong Kong movies as a whole. I also agree with the fact that subtitles never do a movie justice. The majority of Hong Kong movie subs that I've seen are either translated inacurrately or "dumbed down" for a shorter translation. As for Stephen Chiau films, I usually don't get the play on words. I am Chinese, but being born in North America, I don't have the vast vocabulary of those born in China or Hong Kong. However, I find the silliness of his movies very funny, as does one of my "westerner" friends.

by **PAUL MARTINEZ** » Fri May 25, 2001 4:19 pm

Some good points made Mr. Chan. Thank you to you and senordingdong for your take on this subject. I think the fact that HK films are low-budget and sometimes a little lacking in the acting department gives them an appeal as an alternative to their western counterparts. I for one have seen a staleness coming from Hollywood as of late. Sometimes you just want to watch a movie and not have it try to be so clever as so many US films do.

by **pjshimmer** » Sat May 26, 2001 6:19 am

Well, the #1 problem with HK cinema is that HK has what, 5 million people? As opposed to nearly 300 million in the U.S., so no matter what, the audience in HK simply cannot pump enough money into their theatres to make local productions as rich as those in the U.S. I hope someday cinemas in Mainland China and HK can team up; that way at least it'll have the biggest audience in the world, but of course the language dialects is still a problem. Concerning the English subtitles. I too have always considered them mediocorely translated. On some occassions, there is simply no accurate translation from Chinese to English. Like "Sheng Gong" for instance, meaning "supernatural" in English, I guess, but it's just not part of the English-speaking culture. What's more, I think, is that dubs are even worse. At least from subtitles you are not forced to hear the stupidest talkings in English. I always thought the British had a rather funny accent (no offense), but the people who do the dubbing - they were probably paid so low that they couldn't possibly show any professionality or skill. I am positive that an average high school American student can do better than the voice dubbers.

by **xiaoka** » Sun May 27, 2001 9:53 am

Unfortunately there is almost no market in Mainland China for movie theaters. People watch movies at home on their VCD players or VCRs, you almost can't even find movie theaters in China. Likewise in Hong Kong very few people go to theaters... even now that they've cracked down on piracy in HK, theater attendence isn't too great. About the quality of movies - I agree w/ the other opinions voiced here. The size of the market and theater attendence has little do w/ its problems. Poor scripting (if any), popularity contests for casting, and the general willingness to turn out crap is HK cinema's #1 problem. (Go see 'Model From Hell' if you need an example) -Xiao Ka

by **pjshimmer** » Sun May 27, 2001 7:56 pm

Realistically, China has no threatical means. Idealistically, however, if we could get people there to go to the big screen, there would be a succession of good movies from the area. I still think HK's 6 million people easily contributes to the fact that productions are primarily worthless. Why do you think we hardly hear such a thing as a Brueneian film or a Mongolian film? Meanwhile, There's not enough people going to theatres because movies are so bad. On the [contrarory], if movies are good, I'm sure people would get off their couch and go see them. Problem is somebody needs to start making good movies again, and I'm not sure who in mainstream existence can.

by **xiaoka** » Sun May 27, 2001 9:12 pm

There is a fundamental difference between the idea of seeing a movie in the US and seeing one in China, and/or HK. The reason people go to theaters in the US to see a movie is firstly for the opportunity to see as soon as it comes out, this reason does not exist in China, when you can get it on VCD before it even shows up in the theater. The second reason to see it in the theater is the 'Theater Going Experience' (ie big screen, great sound, etc) - this also does not exist in China or for the most part HK. People in HK don't even rush to the theaters even to see big US movies, so the argument that its just the quality of the movies doesn't necessarily hold water. -Xiao Ka

by **pjshimmer** » Tue May 29, 2001 3:54 am

I must say, I think more like a Chinese than an American. -Why would I spend $7 and gas money to go to the theater to see a movie, when I can just buy it a year later on half.com for half less?- That's probably an accurate piece of my philosophy. The last movie I saw in theater was, well, The Matrix, if I'm not mistaking, which was what, 2.5 years ago? If you ask me whether I would rather go to theater to see a film or rent it 2 months later, I would probably rent it or better yet, buy it. When I went back to China for a short visit in the summer of 1999, my friend, for whatever reason (I think it had something to do with the rain that day), wanted me to go watch "Tricky Master" (Stephen Chow) with him in the local theater. I was totally against that idea because, well, nobody goes to a theatre in China, are [you] crazy? But I went along anyway, and it was an okay experience. The showroom was located on the 3rd or 4th floor. We sat on comfy leather couches, but there was no air cond. in that room and we were all sweating like a pig. I found it very ironic that the motion picture was basically shown from a DVD. In fact, they had to change the disc once during the show, and during the process the whole screen had a DVD icon on it. I'm not sure if this is legal, or if it's done in the U.S., but I thought it was ridiculous.

by **pjshimmer** » Thu May 31, 2001 2:03 am

Upon examining theatrical grosses by HK films, I come across this thought immediately: when you have such little success in theatrical grossing (less than $3 million USD for majority), the money put into the production can't be much more than it can gross. With such little production budget available, no wonder most films are not impressive. Production budget is always relavent to the result of the movie, I believe. Often we get stupid movies with big budget, and good movies with small budget, but for the most part what you put into it is what you get from it. Most American releases gross more than $50 million, and that alone, I believe, is a big advantage to the production value. For one thing, American movies gives more hope for the crew when they know their work are most likely to gross more. It doesn't matter how big a country is; if it can't earn much money in the theater, it means trouble. I'm not sure if there's anything HK cinema can do about this shortage of local grosses. It's only got 6 million people. By the way, can anyone tell me how large a role theatrical gross plays on the total gross of a production? Also, do the ppl involved in the production get a lot of money from dvd/vhs/vcd releases?

by **senordingdong** » Thu May 31, 2001 5:36 pm

I agree with what people are saying in this thread. In North America, bootlegs are just as readily available, thanks to the Internet, yet we still go to the theatre, just for the big screen experience. As for why Hong Kong movies, don't do that well, it's partially because of the the low budgetness, cheezy plots, and bad acting. But speaking as a movie purist in a western society, the majority of Hong Kong movies are dubbed when released in North America, and as a purist, I wouldn't go to the theatre to see a Hong Kong movie dubbed, even if it was for free. I think one of the reasons that Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon did so well in North America was because it wasn't dubbed. Of course the fact that it wasn't cheese-tastic also helped out.

by **senordingdong** » Thu May 31, 2001 5:45 pm

Good point Will, but I think the production values, and quality of HK movies overall, have significantly improved in last few years. No more shakey cameras, no more awkward cuts, and no more unsincronized soundtracks. I think the major problem with HK movies today are the scripts. Take a look at movies like Gen-Y Cops, China Strike Force, and Skyline Criusers. They don't look like they were cheaply made, yet the stories are really terrible.

by **pjshimmer** » Sun Jun 03, 2001 3:49 am

Do you know if the DVD version of Crouching soon to be release is dubbed in English? For some reason, most oversea releases of the movie has been dubbed, and I'm seeing less and less subtitled copies as time goes by.

by **senordingdong** » Sun Jun 03, 2001 10:22 pm

The DVD has both the Mandarin and English dub tracks on it.

by **pjshimmer** » Tue Jun 05, 2001 6:29 pm

I only heard the last 15 minutes, or so, of the movie in Mandarin, and the sound effects were terribly low. I must say Chow and Yeoh's Mandarin are not too convincing (lack emotion), but it should get by with just about anybody.

by **xiaoka** » Thu Jun 07, 2001 7:56 am

CYF's mandarin isn't too bad, but Michelle Yeoh's is pretty horrendeous. It sounds a lot like mine. The thief guy has a really heavy taiwanese accent too. I have several Chinese-American friends who really had trouble enjoying the movie because of the accents. -Xiao Ka

by **senordingdong** » Thu Jun 07, 2001 5:24 pm

I can't understand mandarin, so I can't tell that they don't speak it clearly. I guess that's why the movie didn't do so well in Taiwan but did great everywhere else.

by **pjshimmer** » Fri Jun 08, 2001 1:44 am

Does anyone actually know why they decided to make the movie in Mandarin, when they have 2 leads that lack abilities to speak the dialect fluently? I've seen Samo Hung (Martial Law), Jackie Chan (Mr. Nice Guy), Jet Li (Romeo Must Die), Ti Lung (Shatter) and Chow Yun Fat (Replacement Killer) speak Chinese in English movies. Of all of them, only Chow Yun Fat chose to speak Cantonese; the others all spoke Mandarin (by choice, I presume.)

by **senordingdong** » Sat Jun 09, 2001 12:22 am

I think they filmed it in Mandarin for authenticity, because of where and when the film takes place, and also because it's Ang Lee's mother tongue.

by **pjshimmer** » Sat Jun 09, 2001 7:59 pm

If one day everybody in HK cinema "filmed kung fu movies in Mandarin for authenticity," that would truly be the best day of my life (or at least among them). Most new wave HK martial arts movies have Mandarin versions on DVD/vcd, but a lot of them are only available in Cantonese (I think Sword of Many Loves was never dubbed in Mandarin; at least I haven't seen one such. Try appealing authenticity to those guys!). For somebody to film one such period piece in Mandarin is really unheard of. I am at big loss and irreplaceble disadvantage for not able to understand Cantonese.

by **pjshimmer** » Mon Jul 16, 2001 5:04 pm

If anyone cares, I have now gotten a little taste of what "horrible Mandarin" really means. I'm not sure which is worse, Michelle or Chow. But their Mandarin skills are kinda like the horrible English dub we've been discussing here lately. Personally, I think a dub would have worked out much better. Moreover, a different cast wouldn't have hurt either. (too bad Jet Li wasn't available)

Westerners

Westerners

Re: Westerners

Re: Westerners

Re: Westerners

'team up'!

Re: 'team up'!

Re: 'team up'!

Good point.

this is where theatrical grosses come into play

Re: 'team up'!

Re: Westerners

Crouching Tiger DUBBED

Re: Crouching Tiger DUBBED

Re: Crouching Tiger DUBBED

pretty bad

Re: pretty bad

Why?

Re: Why?

Re: Why?

RE: Crouching Tiger Mandarin

Who is online