Many Hong Kong movies have "sequels" that people may not realize are "sequels" since they don't necessarily fit the definition but most definitely carry the same titles in Chinese.
For an obvious example, someone picking up THE LEGEND OF SPEED may notice, as I did when I first bought it, that it has a "II" after the Chinese title. Weeks later, I went back to the store and asked the young girl behind the counter if they had "the first one" and she said she didn't know what it was. Not sure if she was too "up" on Chinese cinema, and I, at the time, was still green on Chinese text, so I went to another store, grabbed LEGEND off the shelf and asked the guy if he had "Part One," at which point he swiftly handed me a copy of Derek Yee's FULL THROTTLE off the shelf behind him. Of course, I'd had FULL THROTTLE in my collection for a couple years already, and politely declined to buy it again.
Now, obviously, these films only share a common theme (street-racing), but the fact is, the filmmakers deliberately reused the name of the earlier film to sell the newer one. This is sort of like THE CROW movies in the states, for example, in which, to my knowledge, the stories are unrelated by anything other than theme.
So I'm wondering if there's anyway to include an addendum on these types of films in the database, if for no other reason than to help the newbie track down an earlier film, rather than scouring through the internet or scrounging through books on Hong Kong cinema, which often turn up dead ends. I don't see many HK movie websites offering this admittedly small service, so maybe it's something the HKMDB could take the lead with, just to be completist.
Off the top of my head:
LEGEND OF SPEED is the followup to FULL THROTTLE
CITY COP (listed erroneously in the DB as CITY COPS II) is the followup to LAW WITH TWO PHASES (as discussed in a concurrent thread on that film)
HIGHWAY MAN is a followup to OFF TRACK
There are a few others but I don't have my writing near me to check the details. I will post more later when I have the time.
When a sequel's not a sequel: unofficial Part II's
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When a sequel's not a sequel: unofficial Part II's
by Brian Thibodeau » Wed Aug 03, 2005 4:23 pm
Last edited by Brian Thibodeau on Thu Aug 04, 2005 5:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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by calros » Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:25 pm
We can "link" a movie with its sequel, follow up, prequel, etc.
In the "Link" Tab you we can add the name of the other movie and may explain what kind of "relation" have them.
In the Summary we can explain a "non-relation" between movies. For example, we can write, in the movie "Thunder Cops II": "Note: Not related with 'Thunder Cops' ".
About your examples:
I have not seen none of these movies, but certain editor says "Legend of Speed" is a remake, not a sequel.
Mr. Inner Strength, who is the only person who has seen both "City Cop" and "Law With Two Phases" do not say they are related.
In the "Link" Tab you we can add the name of the other movie and may explain what kind of "relation" have them.
In the Summary we can explain a "non-relation" between movies. For example, we can write, in the movie "Thunder Cops II": "Note: Not related with 'Thunder Cops' ".
About your examples:
I have not seen none of these movies, but certain editor says "Legend of Speed" is a remake, not a sequel.
Mr. Inner Strength, who is the only person who has seen both "City Cop" and "Law With Two Phases" do not say they are related.
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by Brian Thibodeau » Thu Aug 04, 2005 5:53 pm
LEGEND OF SPEED could only be called a remake in that it is set in the same milieu as FULL THROTTLE, but having seen both, I can say there are significant differences (beyond the fact that the latter film features cars and the original features cycles) that qualify both films as separate entities. Nonetheless, they share the exact same Chinese title, only the latter adds the "2." Hong Kong seems to be one of the few world film cultures where the title of one film can lend itself to many different "incarnations" after the fact.
Also, I have also seen both LAW WITH TWO PHASES and CITY COP and, much like LEGEND and THROTTLE, can verify that they are indeed unrelated outside of some shared cast members and the police procedural setting. The fact remains, though, that the filmmakers for CITY COP took the exact same Chinese title for LAW and slapped a "II" after it.
Again, I'm sure this was probably done to cash in on the popularity of the earlier film, but to the average Joe Newcomer who comes across CITY COPS in a Chinese video shop and actually notices that "II" in the title, it might be handy if he could simply come to the HKMDB to find out what previous movie bore the same title in case he was interested in seeing it. I know this would have saved me some fruitless searching over the years. The database is fantastic for including the Chinese character titles for these films, so those so inclined to spend a lot of time MIGHT put tow and two together if they click enough titles, but this would simplify the process for these kinds of films.
Also, I have also seen both LAW WITH TWO PHASES and CITY COP and, much like LEGEND and THROTTLE, can verify that they are indeed unrelated outside of some shared cast members and the police procedural setting. The fact remains, though, that the filmmakers for CITY COP took the exact same Chinese title for LAW and slapped a "II" after it.
Again, I'm sure this was probably done to cash in on the popularity of the earlier film, but to the average Joe Newcomer who comes across CITY COPS in a Chinese video shop and actually notices that "II" in the title, it might be handy if he could simply come to the HKMDB to find out what previous movie bore the same title in case he was interested in seeing it. I know this would have saved me some fruitless searching over the years. The database is fantastic for including the Chinese character titles for these films, so those so inclined to spend a lot of time MIGHT put tow and two together if they click enough titles, but this would simplify the process for these kinds of films.
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by MrBooth » Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:06 pm
Do the Chinese titles of HEAT TEAM and COLOUR OF THE LOYALTY imply that they're sequels to HIT TEAM and COLOUR OF THE TRUTH, btw? Obviously the English titles suggest sequelage, but not so much that people can cry "foul" when they discover they're completely unrelated 
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by Brian Thibodeau » Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:24 pm
I see where you're coming from with titles like those, but the Chinese title for HIT TEAM shares ONE character with the Chinese title for HEAT TEAM. The Chinese title for COLOUR OF THE TRUTH shares TWO Chinese characters with the Chinese title of COLOUR OF THE LOYALTY. In the case of the "TEAM" films, I must admit I never once thought that "HEAT" was in any way related to "HIT," even in an anthological way.
Knowing the propensity for Hong Kong filmmakers to churn out quicky knockoffs of successful products, I usually EXPECT there to be some English titles now and again that blatantly play on earlier, likewise English titles, such as in the cases you mention. In both instances, the films share certain elements (and in the case of the "Team" films, the same director), but the fact is, their Chinese titles indicate NO connection whatsoever. Someone new to HK cinema, of course, is bound to think that these sets of films are related because their ENGLISH titles sound so similar, but I see little reason to compensate for that because the intent of the filmmakers, as indicated by the titles chosen in their own language, appears to have been NOT to draw any direct connections.
But the films I mentioned above, plus a handful of others that I'm hoping to look up soon, share EXACTLY THE SAME Chinese titles PLUS the addition of a number "2" or "II." Most of us know they are not "technically" sequels, and more like entries in an anthology, but it's far more likely that the uninformed newcomer might grab the second film first and, by spotting the numeral after the Chinese title, assume they're missing something. By making note of it here in the database, it might be helpful, even if it is only in rare instances. Perhaps even a little "NOTE: blah blah blah..." at the bottom of each listing just to help clarify the Chinese titlings. It would certainly make the listings that much more informative. Heck, I'll even type them up myself if no one wants to waste their time! Someone would have to post them for me, of course.
I realize this sounds like I'm nitpicking, but there have been many times when I've wondered for too long whether I was missing a "part 1" when I bought a particular title (like the three mentioned in my original post) and noted the "2" in the Chinese text, but not in the English text. Since these are, after all, Chinese movies, and I am, after all, a completist, I simply wished there was a resource that might direct me to a particular film's "predecessor," whether it was truly related or not.
The RAPED BY AN ANGEL series suffers from this same mixing up of English titles. The series known formally in English as Raped By An Angel 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 is not, in fact, numbered that way in Chinese.
RAPED BY AN ANGEL 2: UNIFORM FAN does indeed bear a "2" in the Chinese title, but only the two Chinese characters for "Keung Gaan" are shared between them, indicating that part 2 may belong to another series (anthologically). The first film does not appear to have ANY sequels, if you go by the Chinese titles.
RAPED BY AN ANGEL 3 does have a "3" in the Chinese title, and the Chinese characters indicate it belongs in the same series as "part 2."
RAPED BY AN ANGEL 4, based on its Chinese title, appears to be a stand-alone film given the english "RAPED" moniker by virtue, once again, of its theme alone.
RAPED BY AN ANGEL 5: THE FINAL JUDGEMENT has a "2" in the Chinese title, but FOUR of the remaining Chinese characters seemingly connect it to RAPED BY AN ANGEL 2, except that those four characters appear now appear before the "2" instead of after it. The subtitle has become the title, as it were.
My ramblings regarding them notwithstanding, I do have note somewhere connecting most of these RAPED films to their proper "anthologies" (if you will), but I don't have access to them at the moment. I'll try to look for them soon.
And don't even get me STARTED on the Gambling films like the SAINT OF GAMBLERS SERIES, the GOD OF GAMBLERS series and a few others (like MY NAME IS NOBODY) that, in their Chinese titles, have a completely different chronology that, I think, should be alluded to in individual entries for those films.
But that's just me, I suppose.
Knowing the propensity for Hong Kong filmmakers to churn out quicky knockoffs of successful products, I usually EXPECT there to be some English titles now and again that blatantly play on earlier, likewise English titles, such as in the cases you mention. In both instances, the films share certain elements (and in the case of the "Team" films, the same director), but the fact is, their Chinese titles indicate NO connection whatsoever. Someone new to HK cinema, of course, is bound to think that these sets of films are related because their ENGLISH titles sound so similar, but I see little reason to compensate for that because the intent of the filmmakers, as indicated by the titles chosen in their own language, appears to have been NOT to draw any direct connections.
But the films I mentioned above, plus a handful of others that I'm hoping to look up soon, share EXACTLY THE SAME Chinese titles PLUS the addition of a number "2" or "II." Most of us know they are not "technically" sequels, and more like entries in an anthology, but it's far more likely that the uninformed newcomer might grab the second film first and, by spotting the numeral after the Chinese title, assume they're missing something. By making note of it here in the database, it might be helpful, even if it is only in rare instances. Perhaps even a little "NOTE: blah blah blah..." at the bottom of each listing just to help clarify the Chinese titlings. It would certainly make the listings that much more informative. Heck, I'll even type them up myself if no one wants to waste their time! Someone would have to post them for me, of course.
I realize this sounds like I'm nitpicking, but there have been many times when I've wondered for too long whether I was missing a "part 1" when I bought a particular title (like the three mentioned in my original post) and noted the "2" in the Chinese text, but not in the English text. Since these are, after all, Chinese movies, and I am, after all, a completist, I simply wished there was a resource that might direct me to a particular film's "predecessor," whether it was truly related or not.
The RAPED BY AN ANGEL series suffers from this same mixing up of English titles. The series known formally in English as Raped By An Angel 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 is not, in fact, numbered that way in Chinese.
RAPED BY AN ANGEL 2: UNIFORM FAN does indeed bear a "2" in the Chinese title, but only the two Chinese characters for "Keung Gaan" are shared between them, indicating that part 2 may belong to another series (anthologically). The first film does not appear to have ANY sequels, if you go by the Chinese titles.
RAPED BY AN ANGEL 3 does have a "3" in the Chinese title, and the Chinese characters indicate it belongs in the same series as "part 2."
RAPED BY AN ANGEL 4, based on its Chinese title, appears to be a stand-alone film given the english "RAPED" moniker by virtue, once again, of its theme alone.
RAPED BY AN ANGEL 5: THE FINAL JUDGEMENT has a "2" in the Chinese title, but FOUR of the remaining Chinese characters seemingly connect it to RAPED BY AN ANGEL 2, except that those four characters appear now appear before the "2" instead of after it. The subtitle has become the title, as it were.
My ramblings regarding them notwithstanding, I do have note somewhere connecting most of these RAPED films to their proper "anthologies" (if you will), but I don't have access to them at the moment. I'll try to look for them soon.
And don't even get me STARTED on the Gambling films like the SAINT OF GAMBLERS SERIES, the GOD OF GAMBLERS series and a few others (like MY NAME IS NOBODY) that, in their Chinese titles, have a completely different chronology that, I think, should be alluded to in individual entries for those films.
But that's just me, I suppose.
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by MrBooth » Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:30 pm
I was going to mention the whole saint/god/knight of gamblers thing :p The IN THE LINE OF DUTY series is an endless source of confusion for people too... do the Chinese titles have any connection or was it invented for English speakers?
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by Brian Thibodeau » Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:46 pm
Good choice.
This "series" was not helped in the early days by Thomas Weisser's awful Asian Cult Cinema book, but here's what I've figured out i the intervening years (and I suspect this is all fairly well reported by now, but you never know).
YES MADAM is the first one.
ROYAL WARRIORS is the second, although its Chinese title shares only two of the four Chinese characters (see listings). I'm guessing those two characters might have been enough for Chinese audiences at the time to know they were getting a closely related film, if not an outright sequel, thus the numbering started with "3" for the next film...
IN THE LINE 3 actually bears the EXACT SAME four Chinese characters as YES MADAM plus the number "3."
IN THE LINE 4 bears the same four Chinese characters as YES MADAM, plus the number "4." Both Part 3 and 4 have further Chinese characters that indicate subtitles of some kind (secondary titles)
MIDDLE MAN has the same first four characters as YES MADAM, but NO number "5", just the secondary Chinese title.
FORBIDDEN ARSENAL and SEA WOLVES, which both turn up in searches when you type in "IN THE LINE OF DUTY" are, indeed, part of the series. However, and this is the tricky part, the first four Chinese characters DO appear on the original Hong Kong/Chinese packaging of these films, although they aren't included for some reason in the Chinese titles featured in the listings here, which could very well make someone wonder why these two films would show up in such a search (though i believe some of the reviews within those listings note the films' series affiliation. FORBIDDEN is, by virtue of it's production date, the 6th film in the series, while SEA WOLVES is the 7th. The Chinese characters are rather small on the posters and sleeves, which might be why they've inadvertently been left out of the titles in the database.
I've tried to find links to artwork for these last two films, but it looks like they're out of print in most formats and regions. If I get time, and I can figure out how to do it, I might try to scan and upload the sleeves to my VCDs for both films, if that helps.
Then, of course, there's a listing here for "YES MADAM (2) (1995)" which shares not Chinese title affiliation with the series, but apparently stars Cynthia Khan, thus the cash-in English title. I've not seen this one.
And then there's YES MADAM 5, from 1996, which again shares NO common Chinese title characters with the main series, indicating it's a stand-alone picture with, at best, shared thematic elements, and a producer willing to cash in on the original series for the international market.
And finally, there's A SERIOUS SHOCK! YES MADAM! from 1993, which also shares no title characters with the original series. Like the two I just mentioned, this comes by its English title undoubtely due to producers looking to ride on the coattails of a famous film.
This "series" was not helped in the early days by Thomas Weisser's awful Asian Cult Cinema book, but here's what I've figured out i the intervening years (and I suspect this is all fairly well reported by now, but you never know).
YES MADAM is the first one.
ROYAL WARRIORS is the second, although its Chinese title shares only two of the four Chinese characters (see listings). I'm guessing those two characters might have been enough for Chinese audiences at the time to know they were getting a closely related film, if not an outright sequel, thus the numbering started with "3" for the next film...
IN THE LINE 3 actually bears the EXACT SAME four Chinese characters as YES MADAM plus the number "3."
IN THE LINE 4 bears the same four Chinese characters as YES MADAM, plus the number "4." Both Part 3 and 4 have further Chinese characters that indicate subtitles of some kind (secondary titles)
MIDDLE MAN has the same first four characters as YES MADAM, but NO number "5", just the secondary Chinese title.
FORBIDDEN ARSENAL and SEA WOLVES, which both turn up in searches when you type in "IN THE LINE OF DUTY" are, indeed, part of the series. However, and this is the tricky part, the first four Chinese characters DO appear on the original Hong Kong/Chinese packaging of these films, although they aren't included for some reason in the Chinese titles featured in the listings here, which could very well make someone wonder why these two films would show up in such a search (though i believe some of the reviews within those listings note the films' series affiliation. FORBIDDEN is, by virtue of it's production date, the 6th film in the series, while SEA WOLVES is the 7th. The Chinese characters are rather small on the posters and sleeves, which might be why they've inadvertently been left out of the titles in the database.
I've tried to find links to artwork for these last two films, but it looks like they're out of print in most formats and regions. If I get time, and I can figure out how to do it, I might try to scan and upload the sleeves to my VCDs for both films, if that helps.
Then, of course, there's a listing here for "YES MADAM (2) (1995)" which shares not Chinese title affiliation with the series, but apparently stars Cynthia Khan, thus the cash-in English title. I've not seen this one.
And then there's YES MADAM 5, from 1996, which again shares NO common Chinese title characters with the main series, indicating it's a stand-alone picture with, at best, shared thematic elements, and a producer willing to cash in on the original series for the international market.
And finally, there's A SERIOUS SHOCK! YES MADAM! from 1993, which also shares no title characters with the original series. Like the two I just mentioned, this comes by its English title undoubtely due to producers looking to ride on the coattails of a famous film.
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by Brian Thibodeau » Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:40 pm
Oh, you're not the only one who gets the reference. They used to show Mastermind (reruns, I presume) over here on our provincial TV network called TV Ontario. I remember watching several episodes they ran during a marathon in the mid-80's on that channel and being absolutely hooked.
Sadly, I wouldn't stand a chance on that show. I just want people to think that I might!
Do they still show that one over there?
Sadly, I wouldn't stand a chance on that show. I just want people to think that I might!
Do they still show that one over there?
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by MrBooth » Fri Aug 05, 2005 12:22 am
Brian Thibodeau wrote:Oh, you're not the only one who gets the reference. They used to show Mastermind (reruns, I presume) over here on our provincial TV network called TV Ontario. I remember watching several episodes they ran during a marathon in the mid-80's on that channel and being absolutely hooked.
Sadly, I wouldn't stand a chance on that show. I just want people to think that I might!
Do they still show that one over there?
Well, at least you'd have no problems choosing a "specialist subject"
The show is on our screens again over here - it disappeared for a long time but they revived it with a new host. I've only caught odd bits of it, but it seems like it's still as elitist as ever. They did "Kids Mastermind" for a while - it was shocking how stuck up a 7 year old can actually be!
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by Brian Thibodeau » Fri Aug 05, 2005 12:50 am
That's the one thing that has stuck with me all these years about that show. The contestants who were on it when I watched it rather reminded me of the borgeousie twits to the extent that it was very satisfying to watch them fail - until I realized I could never even attain the level at which they were failing! Then I'd get mad.
Picture it: "Specialist Subject: Chinese title chronology of Hong Kong B-action pictures and rape films, please!"
I was much, much better at the Mastermind boardgame, with the little pegs on the plastic tray.
Picture it: "Specialist Subject: Chinese title chronology of Hong Kong B-action pictures and rape films, please!"
I was much, much better at the Mastermind boardgame, with the little pegs on the plastic tray.
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by calros » Fri Aug 05, 2005 2:30 pm
Mr. Thibodeau, my english is not good enough to explain in a Note that "this movie is a sequel but not exactly a sequel of..." etc.
You said you would type that note. Do it here and I will upload it to the movie.
You said you would type that note. Do it here and I will upload it to the movie.
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by Brian Thibodeau » Fri Aug 05, 2005 2:31 pm
that would possibly be the best thing that's ever been on tv!
I suspect it might!
Anyhoo, I checked into FORBIDDEN ARSENAL and SEA WOLVES last night. Both my VCD sleeves do indeed include the Chinese characters from YES MADAM, but they're comparitively small and just above the main Chinese titles. Don't have scanning abilities at the moment, but perhaps down the road. Ultimately, though, it might not matter in the case of these two films, since their ON SCREEN titles do NOT include these characters, indicating they were probably appended to the advertising simply to cash in on Cynthia Khan's appearance in both films as a police woman.
As to the RAPED films, I looked over my notes and it turns out I still don't have a Chinese-name predecessor to RAPED BY AN ANGEL 2: THE UNIFORM FAN (it may indeed be the first RAPED film, since they do share those two "Keung Gaan" characters).
However, RAPED BY AN ANGEL 5: THE FINAL JUDGEMENT is indeed a sort-of/alternate sequel, possibly name-only if I recall, to RAPED 2. Part 5's Chinese title translates into UNIFORM FAN 2: UNDERGROUND JUDGEMENT.
So basically, the true RAPE film fan has a choice of two directions after he (or she) has watched RAPED BY AN ANGEL 2. You can move on to Part 3 and 4 OR go straignt to Part 5 (which bears a closer thematic relationship. Crazy! Part 4's Chinese title also starts with the characters "Keung Gaan" (which I'm assuming has some reference to rape or rapists) so I have to assume that does make it part of the series after all.
I feel dirty now.
Might tackle the gambling saint/knight/god movies soon, too.
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by Brian Thibodeau » Fri Aug 05, 2005 2:40 pm
Calros,
Thanks so much!
Give me a few days as I'll be away for the weekend, but I'll try to put one overall post together that contains as many "Notes" as I'm able to put together for the GAMBLER/RAPED/LINE OF DUTY FILMS, and any other such films as I can dig up from my notes. Most of these cases will be for films from the 80's and 90's and 00's (I don't wanna think about how long Hong Kong producers have been doing this!!).
If I have any serious doubts about a particular film's lineage, I'll leave it alone for the time being. I suspect in many cases, it'll be better to list one film as a "thematic followup" to another, since it sound less like an outright "sequel," which many of these films are decidedly not (like MY NAME IS NOBODY, for example).
Anyways, I'll do what I can.
Thanks so much!
Give me a few days as I'll be away for the weekend, but I'll try to put one overall post together that contains as many "Notes" as I'm able to put together for the GAMBLER/RAPED/LINE OF DUTY FILMS, and any other such films as I can dig up from my notes. Most of these cases will be for films from the 80's and 90's and 00's (I don't wanna think about how long Hong Kong producers have been doing this!!).
If I have any serious doubts about a particular film's lineage, I'll leave it alone for the time being. I suspect in many cases, it'll be better to list one film as a "thematic followup" to another, since it sound less like an outright "sequel," which many of these films are decidedly not (like MY NAME IS NOBODY, for example).
Anyways, I'll do what I can.
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by Brian Thibodeau » Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:00 pm
Good point. At least that one has a core series that actually consists of seven films in chronological order (if you count THE EARLY YEARS, and if you watch it first, of course). I've seen most of the spinoffs and knockoffs, but I think a couple have eluded me. Is LEGENDARY TAI FEI with Anthony Wong an actual spinoff of this franchise? It's been on my list for ages...
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