Inquiry: Kung Fu Cult Master

[bkasten]

Just curious...

[bkasten]

No peanut gallery comments please...you'll influence the vote

[Gaijin84]

Can you put in an option "Have Not Seen It?"

[bkasten]

Can you put in an option "Have Not Seen It?"

So 126 views and only 8 votes? C'mon!

[Gaijin84]

Maybe 118 people haven't seen it!

[Mike Thomason]

And some of us haven't seen it again since original theatrical release back in 1993...

I've always considered it a parody, as well as somewhat of a companion piece to Jeff Lau's Jin Yong parody THE EAGLE SHOOTING HEROES, because back in the day that was what I was told it was intended as! Information imparted to me about a decade ago, by a former colleague (no prizes for guessing), post a privately conducted interview with Wong Jing was that Wong and primary director Hung clashed over the tone of the film (Hung wanting something more serious and Wong wishing to undertake a satire of the resurgent wuxia sub-genre as well as a send-up of Tsui Hark's groundbreaking ZU, WARRIORS FROM THE MAGIC MOUNTAIN); whereupon Raymond Yip was brought in to complete the project after Hung left. The "videogame" sequence, where one of Li's opponents calculates his cumulative score against Li's was cited as a primary notation that the film, as a narrative piece, was not to be taken even remotely seriously.

Cheers,
Michael

[p.i.klein]

I tought a Wu Xia film is a swordplay film?
I don't think this a parody on what ever it can be, but you can't call it very serious and it isn't comedy kung-fu. It's just like so many other films from that period, a light-hearted-martial-arts-film.

[Mike Thomason]

:?:
I tought a Wu Xia film is a swordplay film?

From what I always understood, "wuxia" was always much more than just swordplay; a potted history of the genre can be found below...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuxia

...it refers to an all-encompassing genre of Chinese historical fiction, originating in the literary.

[magic-8]

One of my favorite Jet Li flicks. Great fun.

[pjshimmer]

I tought a Wu Xia film is a swordplay film?

This is a common misconception. I believe Westerners had trouble coming up with a translation of wuxia, and simply attributed wuxia to swordplay, since many wuxia films feature sword fighting.

In the wuxia literature of Jin Yong, advanced martial artists do not rely on weapons. They are able to injure opponents with "long distance palm attacks" from as far as 50 feet away.

That's why physical contact doesn't appeal to me in wuxia films - long distance attacks give the fighter a much bigger advantage, and are downplayed greatly in my opinion.

[bkasten]

I am thinking that the next question will be "are you being honest in this poll?"

[Mike Thomason]

I am thinking that the next question will be "are you being honest in this poll?"

Ex-squeeze me? Yes, I voted "parody" and was being 100% honest!

[bkasten]

I am thinking that the next question will be "are you being honest in this poll?"

Ex-squeeze me? Yes, I voted "parody" and was being 100% honest!

No no. Not you...

[JohnR]

I voted "serious" because there wasn't an option for what I thought it was, which was a wu xia film loaded up with lots of laughs. When I think "parody" I think of a film that makes fun of the genre; I thought the film's makers were having fun, not making fun. But of course it's not really a serious movie either.

It's always been one of my favorites, whatever the heck it is.

[MrBooth]

Agreed with JohnR!

[pjshimmer]

Come on guys, this is no parody. Wong Jing always cranks up some wise-ass gags, but it's far from the likes of Royal Tramp, Legend of the Liquid Sword, or Holy Weapon which are bombarded with local silliness (TM).

[bkasten]

Come on guys, this is no parody. Wong Jing always cranks up some wise-ass gags, but it's far from the likes of Royal Tramp, Legend of the Liquid Sword, or Holy Weapon which are bombarded with local silliness (TM).

There is a difference is between absurdity and parody.

I have read 5 (admittedly, only 5) of Jin Yong's absolutely wonderful novels (as well as translations of a few Gu Long novels), and have watched various TV mini-series renditions of them...and this film is a complete and unabashed lampoon of Jin Yong's work...and although I mean that in a mostly good way, I am rather, ah, astounded to think that anyone could consider this anything but a parody...!?

And by the way, there were some advanced martial artists in Jin Yong's world that used weapons (although I would agree that non of them relied on them). Even the greatest martial artist in his world, Yang Guo occassionally used weapons when he reached the top...and the Monk he ultimately defeated wielded a Golden Wheel. One of the 5 greats, Hong Qi Gong wielded a stick of course...Huang Rong was his disciple. Another of the 5 greats, OuYang Feng, wielded a poisonous staff. Huang Yaoshi wielded a flute...

[pjshimmer]

I am rather, ah, astounded to think that anyone could consider this anything but a parody...!?

Well, It probably has more deadly serious moments (example: the prologue, child Zhang Wuji injured by Xuan Ming Elders, Wuji's parents' suicide, Wuji's encounters with Zhao Ming, Wuji's encounters with the disguised Cheng Kun) than relaxed ones. I mean, this is not the most standard genre film, but it's no Dr. Strangelove either.

And by the way, there were some advanced martial artists in Jin Yong's world that used weapons

Yes, I think weapons can be helpful in certain situations, but what I was getting at is that the user does not rely on it any more. As a general trend, once a martial artist attains a high level of understanding, it is the "intention" that counts, and sword techniques can be performed without a sword. Examples: master Dugu Qiubai's "overcoming a sword without a sword" theory, Linghu Chong and Feng Qingyang, Zhang Sanfeng and Zhang Wuji.

Even the greatest martial artist in his world, Yang Guo

Yang Guo is hardly the greatest martial artist in Jin Yong's universe. Jin Yong has indicated in interviews that Zhang Sanfeng holds that honor (played by a wacky Sammo Hung in this movie), for Zhang had no real training in martial arts and yet could develop sophisticated martial arts theories, like Tai Chi.

More importantly, the next level of logical progression for Yang Guo would be to abandon the Heavy Iron Sword for the wooden sword, and eventually the wooden sword would be replaced by the intention of the sword, i.e. overcoming a sword without a sword.

Also, in some experts' opinion, Yang Guo's best skill is the Sad Palms, which he developed on his own and is performed without weapon.

One of the 5 greats, Hong Qi Gong wielded a stick of course... Huang Rong was his disciple. Another of the 5 greats, OuYang Feng, sometimes wielded a staff.

Yes, but in each case, the martial artist does not depend on the weapon. Hong Qigong can perform the 18 Dragon Subdueing Palms just fine, while I believe Ouyang Feng's Toad Stances is his greatest technique.

It's easy to see the advantage of not relying on weapons. You would not need to carry the weapon with you to be effective.

[bkasten]

Yes, I think weapons can be helpful in certain situations, but what I was getting at is that the user does not rely on it any more. As a general trend, once a martial artist attains a high level of understanding, it is the "intention" that counts, and sword techniques can be performed without a sword.

Yes, certainly. The key, as you pointed out, is the "reliance."

Even the greatest martial artist in his world, Yang Guo

Yang Guo is hardly the greatest martial artist in Jin Yong's universe. Jin Yong has indicated in interviews that Zhang Sanfeng holds that honor

I know taking a "the greatest" position is always arguable. I guess I find it a bit surprising Jin Yong would say that, though. I would also find it hard to admit that on any given day that Yang Guo could not potentially defeat anyone with the "Anran Xiaohun Zhang" (Divine melancholic palm) technique. Even in the middle of a contest his ability could change...

To me it seemed both Lao Wantong and Huang Yaoshi realized Yang Guo could have mopped the floor with them using this technique...especially when Yang Guo's heart was in it.

One of the 5 greats, Hong Qi Gong wielded a stick of course... Huang Rong was his disciple. Another of the 5 greats, OuYang Feng, sometimes wielded a staff.

Yes, but in each case, the martial artist does not depend on the weapon. Hong Qigong can perform the 18 Dragon Subdueing Palms just fine, while I believe Ouyang Feng's Toad Stances is his greatest technique.

But Toad was the first thing Yang Guo learned from XiDu as a boy...? OuYang Feng is such a strange case it seems. For instance, he could counter Guo Jing's "Xiang long shi ba zhang" (18 Dragon Palm). That has always amazed me! Was it the corrupted version of Jiuyin Zhenjing that allowed this?

Maybe not a fair comparison to the Big 5, but I always thought Huang Rong "relied" upon the dog hitting stick technique in her high-end fights.

The extent to which Yang Guo relied on the wooden sword vs his arm using the Dugu Jiujian (Dugu Qiubai's sword methods), I guess, could also be argued. Could anyone ever defeat Yang Guo in a sword battle, though?

It's easy to see the advantage of not relying on weapons. You would not need to carry the weapon with you to be effective.

Certainly.

Oh do I love Jin Yong stories. The greatest. By far. Ever.

[Gaijin84]

Are there translations of these novels available to the non-Chinese reading folks out there?

they sound fantastic

[bkasten]

Are there translations of these novels available to the non-Chinese reading folks out there?
they sound fantastic

They are fantastic. Even if you don't have the slightest interest in martial arts, they are incredibly wonderful stories...and if you have an interest in martial arts, even better.

Some of the novels are, fortunately, translated. Some are not. Some of them are partially translated. Let me see if I can find some links for you. Maybe someone else has some resources too.

I had to read translated versions of the novels. Advanced reading students of the Chinese language still have a very hard time reading Jin Yong novels...

None of the China or HK TVB mini-series are dubbed or even subtitled in English; but in those cases I understand the mandarin soundtrack. The mini series are excellent. Especially the 1980's TVB versions of Shediao Ying Xiong Zhuan (Legend of the Condor heroes), Shendiao Xia Lv (Return of the Condor Heroes), Yi Tian Tu Long Ji (Heaven Sword and Dragon Saber), and Tian Long Ba Bu. Kenneth Tsang, Little Tony, Felix Wong, Leung Kar-Yan, and Andy Lau were among the big stars.

[Gaijin84]

thanks guilao - I actually found a few of his books (under the name Louis Cha) at Amazon. Maybe a potential Christmas present!

Have you heard of these or read them?

The Book and The Sword:
link

The Deer and The Cauldron (Book 1)
link

The Deer and The Cauldron (Book 2)
link

The Deer and The Cauldron (Book 3)
link

[bkasten]

BTW, talk about thread hijacking...

MrBooth should be moderating me about now...

[Brian Thibodeau]

I'm certain DEER & THE CAULDRON, or some part of it, was adapted into a film (and probably more than one), but for the life of me I can't remember where I read it, or even what the film was retitled. Damn. Any thoughts? I probably read it over at Mobius ages ago, but I can't search there.

[Gaijin84]

Yeah - sorry about the thread hijack

[dleedlee]

I'm certain DEER & THE CAULDRON, or some part of it, was adapted into a film (and probably more than one), but for the life of me I can't remember where I read it, or even what the film was retitled. Damn. Any thoughts? I probably read it over at Mobius ages ago, but I can't search there.

For one, THE ROYAL TRAMP is based on THE DEER AND THE CAULDRON. I read vols. 1 and 2 and really enjoyed it. Vol.3, at that time, had not been published and I have not gone back and resumed it. I don't think anyone will be disappointed reading it. I forget the name but there was an old TVB series starring Tony Leung Chiu Wai in the lead...oh, it's Duke of Mount Deer.

[Mike Thomason]

I'm certain DEER & THE CAULDRON, or some part of it, was adapted into a film (and probably more than one), but for the life of me I can't remember where I read it, or even what the film was retitled. Damn. Any thoughts? I probably read it over at Mobius ages ago, but I can't search there.

THE DEER & THE CAULDRON were adapted for the screen as ROYAL TRAMP I & II. The Stephen Chow/Wong Jing films.

Louis Cha is the English name of Jin Yong.

And, as I noted above, Wong Jing intended the film as more a playful parody of the original source material (ironically a Louis Cha novel) and that apparently played a part in Sammo Hung (the primary director, who retained an "action director" credit) leaving the production. The Shaws previously adapated the source (thanks MrBooth!) as HEAVEN SWORD & DRAGON SABRE I & II in 1978. From what I recall, there was less than half an hour's editable footage left over from the shoot of KUNG FU CULT MASTER and, after the film's lacklustre box-office performance, it and any ideas of completing a sequel were abandoned.

Michael

[bkasten]

Lu Ding Ji (Deer and Cauldron) was adapted to TVB mini-series several times--the best known is the one made in the 80's that starred Little Tony and Andy Lau. Of course it's not available in subtitled English. This book is generally known in English as Duke of Mt. Deer. It was also the last full-length novel that Jin Yong wrote.

Gaijin, check out these translations:
http://www.wuxiapedia.com/novels/jin_yong
http://www.spcnet.tv/jinyong/jyreadingroom.shtml

I am still not sure how much to trust those two Oxford Uni. Press books. A lot gets lost in the translation, but I suppose it's better than nothing. A "Legend of the Condor heroes" translation will soon be published by OUP as well.

There is a "Return of the Condor Heroes" manga published in Singapore that I really like. Calros is our resident manga expert.

The best is to get the various stories from as many sources as possible.

It's also a good idea for any Wuxia fans to essentially internalize these stories...they are the basis of the entire genre.

Edit: sorry Dennis, I didn't see your post before I posted this...

[bkasten]

I'm certain DEER & THE CAULDRON, or some part of it, was adapted into a film (and probably more than one), but for the life of me I can't remember where I read it, or even what the film was retitled. Damn. Any thoughts? I probably read it over at Mobius ages ago, but I can't search there.

THE DEER & THE CAULDRON were adapted for the screen as ROYAL TRAMP I & II. The Stephen Chow/Wong Jing films.
Louis Cha is the English name of Jin Yong.
And, as I noted above, Wong Jing intended the film as more a playful parody of the original source material (ironically a Louis Cha novel) and that apparently played a part in Sammo Hung (the primary director, who retained an "action director" credit) leaving the production. The Shaws previously adapated the source (thanks MrBooth!) as HEAVEN SWORD & DRAGON SABRE I & II in 1978. From what I recall, there was less than half an hour's editable footage left over from the shoot of KUNG FU CULT MASTER and, after the film's lacklustre box-office performance, it and any ideas of completing a sequel were abandoned.
Michael

Yes, it's important to note that this topic is about "Kung-Fu Cult Master", and it is of course a parody/light-hearted-version/wahtever of Jin Yong's (Louis Cha's) Yitian Tu Long Ji (Heaven Sword/Dragon Saber).

Mike, thanks for getting us back on topic...

--guilao (aka the master of digression)

[Mike Thomason]

Mike, thanks for getting us back on topic...

--guilao (aka the master of digression)

Truly...were we ever really off topic?
(We still seem to be talking about Jin Yong and films thereof from where I'm sitting...oh, and that "parody vs. serious" thing too...)