Then and Now

[Mike Thomason]

Out of curiousity...

1. What actors are the ones you couldn't stand or failed to connect with you, when you were first introduced to HK cinema, yet have now come to admire?

2. Who are the actors you've never been able to understand their appeal, no matter how hard you've tried?

3. Who did you really used to like, back in the day, but as time wore on you found yourself having less and less time for?

As for me, and to get the ball rolling:

1. Sandra Ng and Eric Tsang used to irritate me no end donkey's years ago, but I feel they've aged rather gracefully and have both turned out outstanding actors to boot.

Andy Lau used to be a one note performer, and always used to feel like the eternal supporting actor who played second fiddle to bigger stars -- now I think he's the greatest superstar HK cinema has ever produced. I don't think twice about seeing anything he's in -- I just do!

Cherie Chung never left any lasting impression on me in my formative HK viewing years (late 80s thru early 90s), but in the past year I've revisited many of her films as well as caught up with some I missed -- and I've found her screen presence exquisitely charming. Retrospectively I see why she was such a star...

2. Nat Chan, no matter how much I try, has never been an actor I've warmed to (and I even grew to like Eric Kot, Cheung Tat Ming & Francis Ng -- all of whom I once used to loathe); I think the only film I've ever been able to tolerate him in was LOVE IS A MANY STUPID THING, and that was only because he seemed so absurd playing Anthony Wong's INFERNAL AFFAIRS character...

Brigitte Lin, sacrilege as it is to say to other HK movie fans, never did anything for me. With her moon-face and dour looks, I've never understood the "beauty queen of Asia" accolades and her presence in near any nineties wuxia film really bugged me. I was one of the very few who, the day she announced her retirement, cracked a huge smile...

3. Jet Li: once I used to be first in line to see anything he was in...now I can't even remember what the last thing he made was. I saw HERO, but the lion's share of his US productions were terrible and his recently announced retirement from martial arts films raised not even a hint of emotion in me. He lost me around ROMEO MUST DIE...

Chow Yun Fat, though he was on a downward swagger before he left HK, has done nothing remotely of interest since he left (short of reclaiming a sliver of nobility with ANNA & THE KING). Once again, I'd see everything he was in and revisit his older HK flicks often -- but he's a former superstar who started losing me at GOD OF GAMBLERS RETURNS (a truly shoddy sequel) and continued on the downward descent since then. Just because he's going to be in PIRATES OF THE CARIBBEAN 3 doesn't mean I'll be going to see it.

Michelle Yeoh used to be an action star I'd watch without second thought...these days, having been afforded the title of "datuk" in her home of Malaysia and several high profile affairs later, she generates zero interest from me. Age has not been kind to her (making her look like an Asian Linda Hamilton more and more every day), and her film work has largely been self-financed, overblown, pompous and self-indulgent rubbish. If she retired tomorrow, I'd wish her a happy Tuesday afternoon high-tea with Brigitte Lin.

Next!!!

[pjshimmer]

1. What actors are the ones you couldn't stand or failed to connect with you, when you were first introduced to HK cinema, yet have now come to admire?

Jackie Chan is the biggest one.

2. Who are the actors you've never been able to understand their appeal, no matter how hard you've tried?

Leslie Cheung
Anita Mui
Sam Hui

to a lesser extent, Bruce Lee. I can understand why he appeals to some (one of the first minorities to defy "White Power"), but I personally don't share the sentiments so much.

3. Who did you really used to like, back in the day, but as time wore on you found yourself having less and less time for?

Same, Jet Li.

[calros]

1. Lam Ching-Ying
2. Stephen Chow & Chow Yun-Fat
3. Jackie Chan in USA.

[Brian Thibodeau]

1. What actors are the ones you couldn't stand or failed to connect with you, when you were first introduced to HK cinema, yet have now come to admire?

While I certainly didn't dislike him, Jacky Cheung's 80's and early 90's stuff left me cold, but I think he's vastly improved in the last decade or so, which is odd considering how long he was away from movies to focus on his music.

2. Who are the actors you've never been able to understand their appeal, no matter how hard you've tried?

I'm with you on Nat Chan and Eric Kot. Although the latter AND Cheung Tat-ming were both excellent in YOU SHOOT, I SHOOT. (if I was allowed, I'd add NEARLY every caucasian actor or cockney British martial artist who's ever appeared in a Hong Kong film outside of established Hollywood talent like Peter Graves, Paul Rudd, Michael Biehn, etc...but that's a whole 'nother thread! :p ). Wasn't Nat Chan also famous outside of the movies as some kind of radio guy or sports announcer or something?

3. Who did you really used to like, back in the day, but as time wore on you found yourself having less and less time for?

I'd also have to go with Jet Li and Chow Yun-fat. Interesting that you mention Andy Lau under question #1, since I've always considered Lau every bit Chow's equal in the acting arena, and how he's the superior talent in so many ways. Chow may have had more good fortune in the early 80's on the big screen, but Lau was doing some decent work in those days in addition to the big pop star career. If anything, he's MORE of a talent than Chow by virtue of all the albums and touring he did in between the myriad movies he made every year. Chow Yun-fat has always played Chow Yun-fat, whereas Andy has been increasingly able to find the character behind the image, so to speak.

[JohnR]

1. Sandra Ng and Anita Mui.
2. I'm so glad someone else feels the same way I do: Brigette Lin. I've been tempted several times to start a thread on her to try to find out what's the appeal. It's downright sacriligious to not see anything special in The Goddess, but she leaves me cold. She's essentially a character actress - she always seems to play either a man, a woman disguised as a man, or a man who becomes a woman, or a lesbian, and her character is often unfriendly with a big chip on her/his shoulder. I avoid her movies. I know there's a book out on her and that Stephen Chow recently named her as the best actress, but she strikes me as an actress everyone knows is great simply because everyone knows she's great.
3. Jackie Chan.

[calros]

Brigette Lin. I've been tempted several times to start a thread on her to try to find out what's the appeal. (...) She's essentially a character actress - she always seems to play either a man, a woman disguised as a man, or a man who becomes a woman, or a lesbian, and her character is often unfriendly with a big chip on her/his shoulder.

THAT'S is her sex appeal!

[pjshimmer]

First of all, there isn't much competition for the legendary actress status. Maggie Cheung is the only contemporary woman I can think of that qualifies, besides Brigitte Lin.

So why is Brigitte Lin revered by many? Personal taste I think To me, she is the only one who excels in what she does, giving us invincible martial angels with a touch of mysticism and ambiguity. Others would look silly trying to imitate her gentle smile or her icy stare of death. Her characters are the only ones that match my vision of the ideal wuxia champion. No one else comes close.

Fanaticism is like belief: it can only be felt, not convincingly explained.

[STSH]

1.
George Lam - thought he was a lightweight actor who was mainly a great singer, until I saw his terrific performance in Boat People.

Eric Tsang - went from one of HK's most irritating character actors to one of HK's best. He credits Wayne Wang with the change, when Eric starred in Eat A Bowl Of Tea.

Stephen Chow - I loathed Chow with a passion. I detest his low toilet humour in particular. But great films like Love On Delivery, $60M man and Fist Of Fury 1991 Part II won me over.

2.
Dior (Ekin) Cheng. A highly overrated actor who can't act, full stop.

Bridgette Lin. Agree with the above comments, though I'll happily watch her movies.

And if one extends to directors :

Clara Law - hated every movie of her's I've seen. Not quite sure what it is, but she seems to create some sort of cross-graining effect.

Wong Kar Wai - ChungKing Express et al. What on earth is all the fuss about. The one exception I'll allow is his masterpiece, Ashes Of Time.

3.
Frankie Chan Fan Kei. Watched a lot of his star vehicles. Some are pleasant but most are tosh. Steve Spinali's review of one Chan movie summed it up - "Frankie stars, directs, writes and produces, all very badly". Again, I'll make an exception for his role as composer, at which he excels.

[mcmoinsen]

1. Simon Yam, Sammo Hung, Anthony Wong

Simon for his comedy site, Sammo for his movies in general and Anthony for his really constantly good acting.

2. Ekin Cheng, Michael Wong, Michelle Yeoh

The first one's cause they're too cool and Michelle cause she's not cool enough.

3. Ekin Cheng, Stephen Fung, Bruce Lee

Ekin and Stephen didn't (positivly) surprise me lately. And Bruce.. Well, I guess a lot of people start out with his movies and get to know later that others are also great.

[Mike Thomason]

Dior (Ekin) Cheng.

Wow, that's a blast from the past! I haven't heard Ekin referred to as "Dior" since '95...

[JohnR]

First I read PJShimmer refer to B. Lin's "icy stare of death" and then I scroll down to MCMOINSEN's avatar and THERE IT IS!!!!

No, please Brigitte, don't hurt me!

I'll never compare you unfavorably to any HK actress again! Not even Charlene.

[bkasten]

So why is Brigitte Lin revered by many? Personal taste I think To me, she is the only one who excels in what she does, giving us invincible martial angels with a touch of mysticism and ambiguity. Others would look silly trying to imitate her gentle smile or her icy stare of death. Her characters are the only ones that match my vision of the ideal wuxia champion. No one else comes close.

Well said. I could not agree more. Although I think if properly executed, Yang Ziqiong is potentially and symbolically capable of the same role...but I have yet to see it...

Actually, and interestingly, who better to play Jin Yong's Dongfang Bubai character than Lin Ching-Hsia? A character that actually set her up for later similar gender-bending, and more importantly, masculinity-threatening roles (indeed a fascinating subject in itself, upon which I suspect very few of us are able to competently discourse).

Lin Ching-Hsia is a woman, and at the same time is a threat to traditional masculinity as she is truly an equal--both literally and figuratively.

To say I revere Lin Ching-Hsia, both as an actress and for what she represents, would be an understatement.

(Mike, I think I need to be moderated for my hijacking your thread...)

[bkasten]

First of all, there isn't much competition for the legendary actress status. Maggie Cheung is the only contemporary woman I can think of that qualifies, besides Brigitte Lin

Anita Mui Yim-Fong, had her life not been cut short, would IMO made it to the top of the "modern acting legend" list...easily. Like Cheung Kwok-Wing, a terrible and tragic loss.

[Mike Thomason]

(Mike, I think I need to be moderated for my hijacking your thread...)

Ah yes, but I fail to see how your posts were really a digression from the topic(s) at hand being discussed...

[Beat TG]

1. Simon Yam, Anthony Wong, Francis Ng, Roy Cheung
2. Chiu Man Cheuk (why didn't he do more films?), Wu Jing
3. Jackie Chan, Jet Li (looking forward to 'Fearless' though), John Woo, Chow Yun Fat

[evirei]

1. What actors are the ones you couldn't stand or failed to connect with you, when you were first introduced to HK cinema, yet have now come to admire?

Anthony Wong. He used to act in loads of this psycho movie. Each time i see him... I feel scared but as he aged... I seriously wanna watch more and more of this movies.

Eric Tsang. Hemmm I think he grew up to be a charisma actor. Lots of charm in him.

2. Who are the actors you've never been able to understand their appeal, no matter how hard you've tried?

Nicholas Tse. I can never understand his character and what he's doing.

Cherrie Yin. Oh my god... I guess i will never understand till the day I die.

3. Who did you really used to like, back in the day, but as time wore on you found yourself having less and less time for?

Jackie Chan. He's always been the hero and shall be a hero till the day he dies. Too boring.

[Brian Thibodeau]

I have to admit, Evirei, it would be nice to see Jackie play a villain, just once. Sammo did it brilliantly in SPL, but I have to wonder if Jackie's just to limited as a dramatic actor...

[evirei]

I have to admit, Evirei, it would be nice to see Jackie play a villain, just once. Sammo did it brilliantly in SPL, but I have to wonder if Jackie's just to limited as a dramatic actor...

Well... yeah i think seeing him play a villain would be cool. I mean.. at least a change for once. He's been in the industry for more than a decade. I wish to see something fresh out of him.

[bkasten]

1) Shu Qi. I always dismissed her for the obvious reasons...but she's become such a wonderful comedic actress and is really starting to hit her stride...and as she does so, she is appearing in fewer HK films, and more Taiwan films...ironically.

2) Simon Yam. I liked him in his many TVB series roles. But I just don't understand his appeal anymore...

3) Donnie Yen. At one time I actually thought Donnie would grow up and become an actor. He never did. He's easily defeats Michael Wong as the single worst actor in HK.

Regarding Jackie Chan, I agree Brian. He should play more bad guys. Remember Island of Fire?

evirei: what can I say, I very much dig Cherrie. That smile of hers...wow. Anyway, I'm sure glad she's out of jail now...

[Mike Thomason]

3) Donnie Yen. At one time a actually thought Donnie would grow up and become a real actor. He never did. He's easily defeats Michael Wong as the single worst performer (as he cannot be referred to as an actor) in HK.

OMG!!! How did I forget this man? He should've been right there at the top of my list under the second bracket of contention! Donnie Yen ranks up there as my once, and always, most loathed HK "personality" (since I agree, guilao, that he can't be called an "actor"); I can't ever see me bringing myself to contemplate appreciating or even liking him.

Why so? For the same reason guilao cited (the fact that he never learned to act much beyond that permanent sneer of his), and the fact that he's been recycling the same moves, a combination of show-off theatrics and blind arrogance, ever since he started in the industry. Other choreographers, like Corey Yuen, Yuen Woo Ping, Yuen Cheung Yan, Tony Ching or even Stephen Tung, have their own unique style but they see fit to often season it with new flavours...just to keep things fresh. Watch Donnie in IN THE LINE OF DUTY 4 or IRON MONKEY, then watch him in BLADE 2, HIGHLANDER: ENDGAME or even LOVE ON THE ROCKS (!) -- nearly two decades apart and it's all the same moves! I kid you not! There is nothing new, not even a hint of emotion on Yen's blankly stone-faced mug. I am stumped as to the appeal of this man...

[pjshimmer]

Before blasting Donnie Yen, I'd take out 90% of the current HK pop idols first, namely Edisen Chen, the Twins, Boyz, Shine, and Ekin Cheng who just won't go away.

Yeah, Donnie Yen seems to recycle a lot of moves. I personally think they are good moves, so I don't think about it too much. What I find a lot more annoying is someone like Sammi Cheng or the Twins trying to imitate these kind of moves, when they obviously don't have what it takes.

[Mike Thomason]

Before blasting Donnie Yen, I'd take out 90% of the current HK pop idols first, namely Edison Chen, the Twins, Boyz, Shine, and Ekin Cheng who just won't go away.

Welcome to contemporary HK cinema. Just like the past, where performers were chosen for martial arts ability and consumer recognition (over acting ability), today's stars are chosen for consumer recognition and financial viability -- and youth demographic are the ones who primarily go to movies at the cinema these days. Any film industry must grow and evolve if it is to remain fiscally viable -- if HK had've listened to a literal handful of overseas aficianados, maybe its own industry would have been dead a long time ago (like Thailand, which ignored its own local market over overseas product and saw its domestic production slump to less than ten films a year in the eighties & early nineties)?

Anyway, like your own, I was just throwing out a personal opinion. Opinion is neither right or wrong...but it is personal and subjective, no matter which way one looks at it.

[Beat TG]

I must say Donnie Yen has improved his acting, though it doesn't say much too. he's good in SPL (both action and acting-wise) but thought he was below average in Seven Swords. Donnie should avoid the sequels!

[bkasten]

I'd take any pop idol over Donnie. At least they have one thing going for them that Donnie does not: they are nice to look at.

I watched Donnie's last two fight scenes in SPL last night. And I will watch the rest of the movie tonight...but he's even managed to be rather uninteresting in that as well...

Hey Yuhao, who is your nice new avatar? I can't quite tell...

[evirei]

evirei: what can I say, I very much dig Cherrie. That smile of hers...wow. Anyway, I'm sure glad she's out of jail now...

hahaha... nothing much can be said... but I somehow feel I can't connect with her... it's like the +ve energy vs. the +ve energy.. it bounces back... hahaha

Welcome to contemporary HK cinema. Just like the past, where performers were chosen for martial arts ability and consumer recognition (over acting ability), today's stars are chosen for consumer recognition and financial viability -- and youth demographic are the ones who primarily go to movies at the cinema these days. Any film industry must grow and evolve if it is to remain fiscally viable -- if HK had've listened to a literal handful of overseas aficianados, maybe its own industry would have been dead a long time ago (like Thailand, which ignored its own local market over overseas product and saw its domestic production slump to less than ten films a year in the eighties & early nineties)?

true true... at times we must also see something that is pleasant to the eyes (i'm cruel!)

[Mike Thomason]

true true... at times we must also see something that is pleasant to the eyes (i'm cruel!)

I'm biased though -- I still hold a torch for HK cinema! It Had To Be You, House Of Fury, Colour Of The Loyalty, Set To Kill, 2 Young, The Unusual Youth, Dragon Reloaded and Wait 'til You're Older were amongst the better films I've seen from anywhere this past year. Still gotta wait for more of the recent stuff to hit DVD (no HK cinemas in my part of Australia anymore! ) before I can say yay or nay on the rest though.

OMG! I think I just hijacked my own thread!

[evirei]

I'm biased though -- I still hold a torch for HK cinema! It Had To Be You, House Of Fury, Colour Of The Loyalty, Set To Kill, 2 Young, The Unusual Youth, Dragon Reloaded and Wait 'til You're Older were amongst the better films I've seen from anywhere this past year. Still gotta wait for more of the recent stuff to hit DVD (no HK cinemas in my part of Australia anymore! ) before I can say yay or nay on the rest though.

OMG! I think I just hijacked my own thread!

NO KIDDING but I also love HK movies! Hahaha... I have bad command of english that discourage me from watching western movies coz I hate that "what are they talking about" feel. I'm lucky I do understand chinese but please never ask me to read or write.

But hey.. from your list of movies up there... it quite recent also you know! Hehehe... Wait 'Til You're Older, It had to be you, Colour Of The Loyalty.. ah... It's good! Two Thumbs Up!

[pjshimmer]

Hey Yuhao, who is your nice new avatar? I can't quite tell...

Tis the actress from the Japanese film STEREO FUTURE.

[pjshimmer]

if HK had've listened to a literal handful of overseas aficianados, maybe its own industry would have been dead a long time ago

What did overseas aficianados want?

Anyway, I don't doubt what you're saying about consumerism. That doesn't change the fact that most of these pop idols are pathetic posers who don't even have the one talent that defined the previous generation (which Donnie Yen is part of)--action delivery.

I'd take any pop idol over Donnie. At least they have one thing going for them that Donnie does not: they are nice to look at.

Must disagree partly. The pop idols have a nice face, but Donnie Yen has a much better toned body than any of these pop idols. That must count for something, and someone out there must be drooling over those Donnie Yen muscles.

Another point: in my opinion, martial arts count for more talent than looking nice. So Donnie Yen wins.

[Mike Thomason]

if HK had've listened to a literal handful of overseas aficianados, maybe its own industry would have been dead a long time ago

What did overseas aficianados want?

PJ: Your post answers your own question -- most (online) overseas HK cinema fans still lament the passing of martial arts and action cinema from the region as it had been known during the seventies and eighties. The fact of the matter is, come JURASSIC PARK & TITANIC, HK just couldn't fend for itself anymore after the American invasion of the mid-to-late nineties; the only thing it had to rely on that could make a difference was its cultural identity and tapping into that idiom. Martial arts films had run their course as a viable overseas export by the late eighties (where the genre was being mixed with other elements in a flagging attempt to keep it alive), and changes in the censorship body, the TELA, meant the virtual end of the OTT violent action the region had been renowned for (ELECTION & SPL would have been passed as Cat II's if they had've been released in the eighties -- today they are classified Cat III). In essence, and by natural attrition, the past is gone...never to return.

Anyway, I don't doubt what you're saying about consumerism. That doesn't change the fact that most of these pop idols are pathetic posers who don't even have the one talent that defined the previous generation (which Donnie Yen is part of)--action delivery.

We'll have to agree to disagree here I'm afraid -- I don't really give a toss whether or not a modern popstar can pull off the moves of a trained martial artist from a former era of HK cinema...no more than I care whether or not if an "old school" martial artist is capable of making a screen comeback that can compete with the charisma and dynamic, as well as other talents, of any modern popstar.

The only thing I do care about is whether or not an artist can appeal to me, and entertain me, as a performer. Of that idiom, like yourself with your Donnie Yen, the majority of contemporary popstars entertain me with the talents they do have...and for that I will continue watching them and supporting them with my hip-pocket.