What Asian films have we all been watching lately?

[cal42]

My viewing has got to be put on hold - I'm off to Rome for a few days (I'm going to see if Chuck Norris's body is still in the Coliseum ).

Catch you all later.

[Brian Thibodeau]

but maybe it'd be best to start up another topic thread in the HK/Asian movies sections (dependent on where the films you're asking about originate from?)

Actually, that's what I've been using this thread for! Since your header didn't expressly mention "new" Asian movies, I figured this would be a great repository for thoughts on older films asd well as new ones. So far, I've dumped thoughts on a few 2003-2005 titles in here, and it looks like others are going even further back and across borders to boot! In fact, between this and the scrounge thread, my bases are covered!

(EDIT: Oops! Just noticed you started the new thread over in Hong Kong movies. You may have to give me time on that one as I've been cutting new(er) releases in to my old release viewing habits of late, but I know sooner or later something might pop up where I could use some alternate viewpoints. I have a feeling Mr. Bearserk might also find that useful once his school schedule allows him time to catch up on the phenomenal backlog of "stuff" he's been reporting in the scrounge thread! I suppose I might just mix 'n match between threads now that we've got so many good ones going )

how does anyone new to the industry (or industries) learn about the films that no-one talks about...if no-one talks about them? Hence my interest to write about the titles I'm just not finding material on around the 'net these days -- contemporary movies!

I think you've summed up my own ongoing plea here in fewer words than I've been able to! While I can usually find a review or two of the latest Hong Kong movies on the internet, only a couple of sites seem to update with any regularity, and there aren't a whole lot of voices to be heard, as you say, unless, of course, it's a high-profile new release. A lot of new stuff does seem to get passed over—you wouldn't believe the digging I had to do to find some info on GHOST IN THE HOUSE; I had to resort to google's Chinese translator to really get anywhere, and even then, it wasn't much!

But anything's better than nothing, and even a few thoughts on some new movie or an old undiscovered gem is enough to put a spark in the back of my brain for my future screenings. If I'm looking for something more substantial, I can always look in the review archives of a number of sites including this one. If I still come up dry, I may throw the ball out there (as I did with FUTAGO above) and see if anyone else chimes in. Surprisingly enough, there's a fair amount of 2006/7 films in the DB here with very thoughtful reviews, so clearly some members here have been keeping up. Hopefully threads like these will keep that ball rolling.

[Mike Thomason]

but maybe it'd be best to start up another topic thread in the HK/Asian movies sections (dependent on where the films you're asking about originate from?)

Actually, that's what I've been using this thread for! Since your header didn't expressly mention "new" Asian movies, I figured this would be a great repository for thoughts on older films asd well as new ones. So far, I've dumped thoughts on a few 2003-2005 titles in here, and it looks like others are going even further back and across borders to boot! In fact, between this and the scrounge thread, my bases are covered!

Well, I was thinking along the lines of titles a little bit older than 2003! That's still falling into the "contemporary" bracket to me! I was actually thinking of a lot of the late nineties to early 00's HK titles that either a) no-one has seen and talks about or b) have seen but no-one wants to talks about (haha) -- you know the type: those that had limited or extremely limited theatrical runs (a week or a few days) before being dumped virtually direct to home video. Films like Resort Massacre, Ultimatum and A Wicked Ghost II, those kinds of things. There's very little ever written about those run of films...and I'm guessing that's because a lot of folk out there simply haven't seen a lot, if any, of those titles. Hence, as I have seen the majority of those titles (and own copies on DVD), the existence of a new thread...

[Brian Thibodeau]

Well, I was thinking along the lines of titles a little bit older than 2003! That's still falling into the "contemporary" bracket to me! I was actually thinking of a lot of the late nineties to early 00's HK titles that either a) no-one has seen and talks about or b) have seen but no-one wants to talks about (haha) -- you know the type: those that had limited or extremely limited theatrical runs (a week or a few days) before being dumped virtually direct to home video. Films like Resort Massacre, Ultimatum and A Wicked Ghost II, those kinds of things. There's very little ever written about those run of films...and I'm guessing that's because a lot of folk out there simply haven't seen a lot, if any, of those titles. Hence, as I have seen the majority of those titles (and own copies on DVD), the existence of a new thread...

Ahh. Now I see where your headed.

Thanks to the ever-falling prices, and the wonderful bargain VCD bins around here, these kinds of titles (new and old) make up a substantial portion of what I've been picking up lately, but I've actually ventured far down the quality ladder since day one. As I've mentioned, I just figured I was in a very small minority and so just kept my thoughts to myself, figuring no one else was bothering with them anyways! And some of them are indeed barely worthy of even a first viewing.

The cheap prices on VCDs here have allowed me to plug in a few holes here and there as of late, so when the time comes to watch one that seems appropriate for the new thread, I'll see what I can do...

[Mike Thomason]

Rice Rhapsody (2004, Singapore, 106m)
Produced by Jackie Chan's JCE company, this one is pretty much a wholly "Singaporean" production, even though it's helmed by Ivy Ling Po's son, Kenneth Bi and stars Taiwanese actress Sylvia Chang and Chinese born chef Martin Yan. Set in Singapore's Chinatown, the story follows Jen Fan (Chang), a single mother with three adult sons, two of whom have embraced their sexuality and are proudly gay, whilst her youngest, Leo (Tan LePham), she's still not so sure about. The arrival of French exchange student Sabine (Melanie Laurent) puts everything to the test, with Jen and her neighbouring, lovelorn, competitor Kim Chui (Yan) attempting their best to play matchmakers to the teenager. Being a regular visitor to Malaysia, there is much that I fell in love with about this film, as there are striking similarities between Singaporean and Malaysian culture and lifestyles. Beautifully score, shot and acted, Rice Rhapsody is really something of a treat as well as a lovely life lesson about acceptance, tolerance and people's own insecurities about themselves and their viewpoints. The finale is quite touching and the film overall is a lushly pleasant experience.

[Masterofoneinchpunch]

Silly Kung Fu Family (2004) Several places state this as HK but I'm not positive on where this was made: added first review to this site. I will have to state I really did not like this film.

Born to Fight (1986) Thailand: Panna Rittikrai's first of about 40 films for Pechpanna (I've seen this spelled several ways) that Tony Jaa says was a huge influence on him to become a stunt man (and action actor). While this film is very raw it has a certain elegance to the action and martial art scenes. The new Born to Fight took a few stunt scenes from this film (and made them bigger) the stunt men in this film still perform some excellent work. Panna is extremely gifted as a martial artist (by the time Spirited Killer came out he definitely slowed down a bit) and it is easy to see the influence on Jaa. A great scene is where he demonstrates his Chinese martial art ability. The shooting was done in Khon Kaen.

The extras on the BCI disc are actually good (definitely better than the Spirited Killer and no 20 minutes of blankness ). The key point is the first interview with Tony Jaa on a Thai program and how Jaa threatened to kill himself unless he went to work with Panna. The Fearless Maniacs special is a good extra on BaaRamEwe's martial art/stunt program.

Thai Police Story (1987) Thailand: I got this on the second disc of a Best Buy exclusive BCI release of Born to Fight. This movie is missing a lot and only has the English dialogue. There are a few good stunts but it appears hurried and very, very cut. Not worth watching.

[steve_cole1]

Ive been going into the old school films recently as there is none of the current crop bar protege which i want to see. Secret Rivals which stars Hwang Jang lee and John Liu which is great chop socky film , King Hus epic A Touch of Zen , Dance of the Drunk Mantis one of the many drunken master sequels . From Japan Sonny Chibas streetfighter series which are quite good

[Mike Thomason]

Sound From The Dark (2000, Hong Kong, 82m)
Honestly, sometimes I really wonder why I watched films written, produced and directed by triple-threat Tony Leung Hung Wah? But like many of his low budget horror entries, this isn't overly too bad but bogs itself down in attempting to shoehorn far too plot elements into its narrative. Set about a small coastal beach community and a string of apparent unrelated deaths, Leung wins points for adding a black magic conversant dwarf to the mix -- but there's really too many unrelated, loose plot ends to tie up effectively as an overall piece of entertainment. And what's with the character names? DVD (Kathy Chow), Bald (Stephanie Che), Locomotive (Kenny Lam)...crazy! For a horror film I was hoping for something more than one genuinely scary moment (a room full of long-haired ghosts) but hey, it's Tony Leung...what was I thinking? I guess this one just ends up scoring bonus points for Joey Man in short shorts...

Violent Cop (2000, Hong Kong, 92m)
Thoughts on this one tomorrow, or the next day

[MrBooth]

Linda Linda Linda (Japan, 2006-ish)
No great surprises in this coming of age/overcoming adversity film in which a group of high school girls decide to form a band to play at the school's festival, but the cast are suitably charming and it passes the time easily enough.

[Brian Thibodeau]

Violent Cop (2000, Hong Kong, 92m)
Yes, the one with Patrick Tam...

Geez, I'd forgotten you asked about this in another thread. Or was it this one? Oops! Guess I don't need to say much one way or the other now, but I will anyways.

I actually watched this awhile back, and found it surprisingly good for the budget range. (plus I just had to be able to say I'd seen both VIOLENT COPS, of course ). Patrick Tam's work in this is right up there with his turn in COMEUPPANCE, and I like the way the whole gay/lesbian milieu was treated with a respectful indifference: folks is what they is. I've always been a fan of William Tuen as well. He's not always given the best supporting roles, but he's ideal in this (is he still acting these days?). Loved the bit where he's mimicking Tam behind his back while the latter's on the phone. Chapman To's character was rather amusing too.


Hmm...wondering if this would be more appropriate over here:
http://hkmdb.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=46680

[Mike Thomason]

Homicidal Maniac (2000, Hong Kong, 92m)
What a pile of tripe! Do I really have to offer thoughts on this?

[Brian Thibodeau]

What a pile of tripe! Do I really have to offer thoughts on this?

You just did, actually!

[Mike Thomason]

There Is A Secret In My Soup (2000, Hong Kong, 84m)
I'm thinking that Human Pork Chop was the less inferior of the two film versions of this real-life crime case...

[MrBooth]

Too lazy to write about this twice, so copy+paste it is!

Gerd Ma Lui (Born To Fight) (Thailand, 198x?)

Panna Rittikrai is the long-unsung hero of Thai martial arts cinema, having taken a love for Hong Kong-style martial arts cinema and his own training in Thai martial arts, a crew of insane stuntmen and almost no budget to create a string of films over several decades that almost nobody outside of Thailand ever saw... until the 21st century, when his protege Tony Jaa made an international splash with ONG BAK, for which Panna was the action director.

Panna followed ONG BAK with the self-directed BORN TO FIGHT, aka GERD MA LUI, which featured even more insane stunts and fights. However, this is not the film I am reviewing here - it took its name from an earlier film in which Panna was the star - it's often dated to 1978 or 1979 on the web, but I think early to mid 1980's is more likely an estimate. The web will also tell you that the 2004 film is a remake of this earlier piece, but this is not true in any traditional sense - ie. the plots of the films are completely different. If it's a remake in any sense, it must surely be unique in that it is just a remake of the action scenes - many of the stunts seen in BORN TO FIGHT (2004) are echoed in BORN TO FIGHT (198?), and some in ONG BAK too. Perhaps Panna wanted to finally show the world what he could do 20 years earlier, when his skills were a match for Jackie Chan or Jet Li's - but had to settle for demonstrating it via the proxy of his young students, who were more likely to survive the ordeal.

The earlier BORN TO FIGHT does lack in budget and technical finesse in a big way compared to the latter, but the talent and dedication of the stunt crew is at least as unquestionable. Panna's speed, agility and strength are the equal of any of his contemporaries, and he has clearly mastered numerous styles and forms. He puts all of this knowledge to worthy use in a series of full contact fights and stunts that are as dangerous-looking as anything to come out of Hong Kong. Nobody is pulling their punches (/kicks/knees/elbows) and it's a miracle some of the stuntmen can stand up after some of the blows they receive. In fact, the only reason I can think of for the bad guys in the final scene to be wearing balaclavas is that many of the stuntmen could NOT stand up afterwards (possibly for months), so they had to keep swapping in new victims.

The plot is of course quite forgettable - and quite confusing - but there is some funny dialogue in places. Acting and cinematography are dreadful, and there are really no production values to speak of - this is cinema made out of passion and dedication, not money (I hope it therefore at least made enough profit to cover the stunt team's medical expenses!). By any standard except 'amazing fights and stunts' it's a terrible film, but viewed from the action perspective it's impressive stuff. Weighted score... 7/10.

The new US DVD is badly cropped, and appears to be taken from a VHS - but that's probably all that survives. The addition of subtitles does make it a worthy upgrade from the Thai VCD though. There's a fair number of extras on the disc, but I haven't looked at them at all so I can't vouch for their value.

Incidentally, I don't think Born To Fight is an accurate translation of Gerd Ma Lui - best I can make out, it actually means something like "Come and get it" :-p

[Mike Thomason]

IQ Dudettes (1999, Hong Kong, 109m)
Well, this was a lot of fun in a light-entertainment kind of way. The un-aging Frankie Chan plays a homeroom teacher for a class that maintain the lowest class average in his school's history, but eventually gets his class to perform when he engages their musical abilities to perform in an inter-school eisteddfod with a rock-rendition of classic Chinese opera "The Butterfly Lovers". There's a bit of mirthful rivalry between Chan and his opposing teacher (musician) Mark Lui, and MUCH rivalry with school head-mistress Monica Chan. Spencer Lam cameos as the school principal.

Amazing facts: 1) Frankie Chan doesn't appear to have aged a day since his "action-hero" era of the late eighties/early nineties (maybe he has a portrait in his attic that's doing all the aging for him?) and 2) Malaysian actress Irene Santiago (of Malaysian-Filipino lineage) receives zero credit on either the DVD sleeve or this DB, even though she's the leading actress in the film! Must suck to be a high profile Malaysian and so often get ignored by the international, as well as SE Asian, communities!

[Tanama77]

well out of the few movies I have seen Shaolin Soccer sticks out most in my mind cause I did like the comedy behind it and the interesting methods used in soccer lol. Plus I like the actors in it too. Teresa

[cal42]

Recent viewings:

Golgo 13 (1977 Japan)
Quite a strange one, this. I like the music and there are some good shots of HK, but it's a bit confusing. Nice 70's action movie though I suppose.
Virus (1980 Japan)
Not all I was hoping for, I must admit.

Just received the Japanese uncut version of Bullet Train, too, so I'll probably be giving that a spin over the weekend.

[MrBooth]

I thought Bullet Train was rather boring I'm afraid - and that Golgo 13 really was a bad 70's action film. Chiba's 70's films have been more miss than hit for me in fact... but the few hits are big hits!

[Mike Thomason]

Golgo 13 (1977 Japan)

Hang on...now even JAPANESE films are shoehorned into the HKMDB? When did this start happening? Was it because the film had the word "Kowloon" in the title?

The IMDb entry for the film...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076281/

...certainly makes no reference to "additional directors" or any sort of Hong Kong lineage.

Forgive the question, and no deliberate offense intended by it, but has the DB now totally lost its direction and focus? I can understand why people would want to pump in Chinese, Korean, Filippino and other Asian territories' product -- as that way the DB has all their favourite martial arts films (a genre NOT limited to HK, btw) in one spot -- into the DB, but to grey the boundaries so far as to lump Japanese cinema into one big amorphous lump under the "Hong Kong cinema" banner? Words fail me...

[MrBooth]

I was rather surprised to see GOLGO 13 in the db too... it is largely filmed in Hong Kong with a lot of HK cast, but I had always thought of it as a Japanese production.

According to our db, the production company appears to have the same name as one of its stars, also listed as co-director... how does that work?

oh well, I have a short review written for it that might as well go up there for now...

[Mike Thomason]

According to our db, the production company appears to have the same name as one of its stars, also listed as co-director... how does that work?

Yeah, but this DB is becoming rather renowned for "bending the rules" in favour of contributors inputting titles* more aligned with their own personal tastes than actual bonafide (backed up with factual evidence) HK-centric data. The Internet Movie Database lists the production company as...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076281/companycredits

...Toei, who certainly aren't a Hong Kong company. Nor is there any mention of a Chinese co-director, or Chinese company involved in the co-production of the original feature. So, does "Kowloon" in the title of a film now qualify a feature as a Hong Kong movie? I am intrigued...

* I can back this with numerous titles if required, but a recent example was the suggested inclusion of Pen-Ek Ratanaruang's Invisible Waves, a Thai/Netherlands co-production, because it featured a couple of HK actors in supporting roles! Or, as another example, Magkasangga sa batas, a Filippino shot and produced, in Tagalog no less, film that sported a majority Filippino cast as well as imported Japanese action starlet Yukari Oshima (who is Japanese, not Hong Kong, of origin) ends up in the DB under its export title Lethal Panther 2 because seemingly people want to acknowledge the film as a Hong Kong production when it is not. But hey, I'm not an editor anymore, so what do I know about HK movies, hey?

[cal42]

I wondered if anyone knew it was in the DB . I think there were a lot of Chinese people who worked on it, but nobody I recognised.

[Brian Thibodeau]

On the same subject, does anyone have any thoughts on HONG KONG NIGHT CLUB?
http://hkmdb.com/db/movies/view.mhtml?i ... ay_set=eng
I picked this up recently in a Chinese store's VCD bargain bin. It's a Mei Ah disc with Hong Kong performers prominently featured on the sleeve art, but in that little sidebar on the back where they usually state the language and subtitles, there's nothing (how clever ). I popped it in, took a few moments to realize it was actually a Japanese film (multilingual of course), popped it back out (for now), then came to look it up here on a vaguely-remembered hunch: I'm fairly certain I stumbled across the NIGHT CLUB entry years ago when I was a more passive user of this site, which makes me wonder when both it and GOLGO were actually added to the DB (since it seems they've slipped under the radar of both experts and non-experts alike for awhile now), but until I actually picked up the disc, it had long slipped my mind. Is it a co-production by any chance? If it is, I believe it should remain. Otherwise, not so sure...

[Mike Thomason]

On the same subject, does anyone have any thoughts on HONG KONG NIGHT CLUB?
http://hkmdb.com/db/movies/view.mhtml?i ... ay_set=eng
It's a Mei Ah disc with Hong Kong performers prominently featured on the sleeve art...

That's really weird, the DVD was released by Universe! Though I don't really like his review style, I put far more faith in Ross Chen's accuracy these days than just about any other Hong Kong related site...

http://www.lovehkfilm.com/panasia/hong_ ... htclub.htm

...and if Ross says it's Japanese, and filed it in the Japanese section of the Panasian part of his site, then I'd take his word over just about everyone else's these days (especially when you consider that he's now based in Hong Kong and works for Yesasia).

There's far too much blatant inaccuracy (or "rewritten history" to suit personal tastes and beliefs over verifiable content) out there these days for my liking -- we've come a long way, but in coming so far things are starting to regress into Weissner-like fanciful fiction just a little too regularly for my liking...

Next the DB will start uploading American films into its datastream on the sole grounds of an appearance by a Hong Kong celebrity! Oh, hang about...

[dleedlee]

The HKFA also lists it as a Japanese production. From the English entry for those who are interested:

Prod. Co.: Japan : Amuse Inc. ; Nippon Television Network Corp. ; Nippon Television Music Co. ; Vap Inc., 1997.
Other Org.: Hong Kong [Distribution] : Golden Harvest [Distribution], 1997 [Release].
Box Office: HK$ 469,250.


I must admit I see no harm in leaving it in the db (~ducks~) as long as it's properly identified.

[Brian Thibodeau]

There's far too much blatant inaccuracy (or "rewritten history" to suit personal tastes and beliefs over verifiable content) out there these days for my liking -- we've come a long way, but in coming so far things are starting to regress into Weissner-like fanciful fiction just a little too regularly for my liking...

You mean we've got made-up reviews in here too?

That's really weird, the DVD was released by Universe!

Probably my mistake. I'll double check my VCD of NIGHT CLUB later tonight since I'm not posting from home at the moment and memory could be serving me poorly. Then again, the film's the thing for me (even this one), not the label, so hopefully my lack of expertise in that area can be forgiven since I'm not planning on editing that entry anytime soon (and again, I'm not at home to check things before I post) .

I'd have to agree about LoveHKFilm. Good site, but I'm also not keen on the review style—they seem so similar to me! Though by your measure, would it be alright for non-Hong Kong films to be included here if they were simply identified as such in an appropriate way—meaning more care given to the "country of origin" tab that's available to us—or moved to their own "sections" so to speak (as on Chen's site and no doubt your own some day), where they wouldn't be so obvious? Or should Ross more accurately have called his site LoveAsianFilm.com, at least before someone else snapped up that domain? It seems like the title of this site is working against us being more inclusive when maybe it doesn't need to, but his is OK...

Next the DB will start uploading American films into its datastream on the sole grounds of an appearance by a Hong Kong celebrity! Oh, hang about...

Cute. Since this might be in reference to the thread where such things have been discussed as of late, I'll just toss out my personal preference that I would love to see us be inclusive of such information, but that it should only be added as non-clickable lists that are separate from the list of clickable Hong Kong titles in a person's DB entry, maybe even as part of their Biography. As such, even Hong Kong Night Club's dedicated page could be made "inactive" and added as a non-clickable title in the DB entries for each Hong Kong actor who appears in it. Simple, really. I don't believe, however, that ALL film appearances by a given HK actor should be included in one run-on list of links, a la the IMDB. That would indeed mean films from America to Timbuktu would have their own database pages, which would just be wrong.

I must admit I see no harm in leaving it in the db (~ducks~) as long as it's properly identified.

I just changed the country of origin to Japan and updated the languages. I'm still open to any discussion of how it should be included in the DB, of course.

[Mike Thomason]

Though by your measure, would it be alright for non-Hong Kong films to be included here if they were simply identified as such in an appropriate way—meaning more care given to the "country of origin" tab that's available to us—or moved to their own "sections" so to speak (as on Chen's site and no doubt your own some day), where they wouldn't be so obvious? Or should Ross more accurately have called his site LoveAsianFilm.com, at least before someone else snapped up that domain? It seems like the title of this site is working against us being more inclusive when maybe it doesn't need to, but his is OK...

I think the MAJOR element that you missed, like always, is the fact that Ross' site doesn't purport to be a dedicated Hong Kong film database -- the last time I checked, "review site" and "database" meant entirely different things in the definition stakes when it comes to the internerd.

Let's just make it easy for all concerned -- I'll vacate this corner of the internet and you can all squabble amongst yourselves why X film from Bollywood should be included in the DB because it featured the action choreography chops of some HK guy; if you're going to take an idea and blow it out to a meaningless interpretation of the original idea, why not go all the way?

[dleedlee]

While we might want to be circumspect about adding non-HK or Mainland (is this also a contentious point?) film entries, it seems to me that the particular film in question was already in the db, and while incorrectly ID'd as HK in origin, and now corrected, does no harm by its inclusion. I see nothing gained from deleting it and future Anita Yuen and Frankie Ng completists may benefit. But I'm just a pack rat by nature anyway.

[Brian Thibodeau]

I think the MAJOR element that you missed, like always, is the fact that Ross' site doesn't purport to be a dedicated Hong Kong film database -- the last time I checked, "review site" and "database" meant entirely different things in the definition stakes when it comes to the internerd.

Well, I always seem to miss the major points, don't I? I'm certainly reminded often enough!

From my very first visit, I've used the HKMDB for the invaluable cast/crew information it contains and, just as importantly, the wonderfully diverse reviews it contains (including yours!), around 12,365 of 'em as I write this. And I'll continue to do so as long as I'm able. To me, it's both—rather obviously, and in spite of the name we're stuck with—but I can't define things by the internerd as I don't get around it very much outside of a handful of sites.

Let's just make it easy for all concerned -- I'll vacate this corner of the internet and you can all squabble amongst yourselves why X film from Bollywood should be included in the DB because it featured the action choreography chops of some HK guy; if you're going to take an idea and blow it out to a meaningless interpretation of the original idea, why not go all the way?

Hope this doesn't mean you're leaving again, but if so, it's been a cool run.

[Mike Thomason]

Hope this doesn't mean you're leaving again, but if so, it's been a cool run.

I am going to do my best to make it more of a permanent vacation and I'm sure, like my questioning aloud of the direction of DB when I was an editor that got my editing privileges removed, this will probably get me permanently removed as the powers that be don't seem to like being questioned here.

I've put up with a LOT in my time here, simply out of trying to help and with the intent of making this DB become progressive and future-proof, instead of regressive and a dinosaur of the past.

I had to put up with editor Andrew constantly bitching and whining behind my back to the admin (whilst never once approaching me in a PM), as well as making persistent and pointed, condescending remarks on board about me every time I put something forward that might see this site gain a simplification in procedure or a dispensal of some old archaic formula that wasn't workable in the modern age (the guy even accused me of "thread-highjacking" every time a topic he was involved in started to stray from the main point once I got involved); the funny thing is...the guy never once acted like that when he was siphoning me for data, that ended up here and on his own site, back in the nineties circa his era...but clearly, this place is his castle and Andrew is king.

...and worst of all, I had to put up with consistent and accommodating PMs from people. Admin Bob kept claiming to me in PMs that we were kindred spirits in the development and future of the DB, as well as saw eye to eye on numerous implementational ideas that would see the site flourish and continue -- he encouraged me to speak my mind and say what I thought on here because he respected my word as well as supported my ideas. But NEVER once did he support or back me on the forums, IN PRINT, when things heated up over something that he had encouraged me to bring to the fore or challenge; I ended up feeling an idiot here, the ONLY voice that spoke out for change or against issues, and alienated by the very person who was encouraging me to take a stand. Frankly, at the point of voicing out my concern over my editorship and the DB direction on board, I was sick and tired of being the only one-legged man in an arse-kicking contest. I know I was encouraged to speak up because there was a feeling that some were too complacent to address directional issues and had fallen into a comfort zone were they just coasted along, but a dissenting voice might have initiated them into discussion -- but the code of silence reigned supreme as always.

I was the first person a lot of editors PMed when they wanted support for changes they wanted to see take place and requested urgent input, only to see them flee and take cover under the nearest rock any time I did the same (this includes whoever it was, as I forget now, that conducted a PM campaign to add more "jobs" to entries and came straight to me first as they knew I would stand to support them). I was also the same person half a dozen editors PMed to offer support for my views and opinions when things became challenging and/or heated, but promptly abandoned cold and left out to dry if I ever put forward something that would "rock the boat" in their favour (eg: "I agree completely with what you said in X discussion on board...but I'm not going to say anything myself, as some people here wield too much power and I don't want to lose my editor's privileges"). There was a lot of sweet talk and pleasantries, but very little real genuine support when it came down to brass tacks...

I full well expect to be completely ousted over speaking my mind this time, but I just wanted people to know the whys and wherefores behind how I came to be where I am emotionally in relation to this DB in the present tense -- I saw and felt good things for the future of this site, as well as was happy to be a part of its ongoing development and evolution, when I was inducted into editor ranks...but over the course of a year or two, the more I spoke up (and was encouraged in private to speak up by other editors and admin here) the more I was demonised and alienated. I should have learned, after the first few times, that the words "I fully support you" here only extend as far as a PM and not into the conflict zone itself...